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16mg Suboxone Per Day 5 Years To NOTHING! Terrified

by waiting4
Doctor pulled the plug. I used my last 8mg on Thursday morning. Spent Thursday and This morning looking for alternative doctors/treatment. No luck.

I made another appt. w/doctor for next Thursday, but as you can imagine I don't trust them with my health at this point. (they are only available on Thursdays).

I think I may need some Imodium soon. On hand I have a bottle of T-3s. Some nice scotch. Smokes. Anti-histamines, Excedrin©. Some blood pressure meds (begins with I), and a bundle of h on order if I need it.

I can contact my primary md or go to er if it gets bad. Right now I'm fine--no appetite, tired, anxiety, but manageable.

I'm expecting the worst to set-in soon-or not. i really don't know what to expect and one person said that there is a possibility that i may be "recovered", and NOT HAVE ANY WITHDRAWAL. (I'm not counting on that but I will try and give that a chance ha ha)

I hope that I am not posting in the wrong topic. If-so I can move this to another.

What I'm hoping for is a little advice. Main concerns are heart-attack or dehydration from vomiting and etc. sickness. Once I get that sick, (if ?)--it will be hard to get to a doctor. That's why I'm planning on getting the immodium as soon as I can. So that may help me at least get from a to b.

I'm 50 and have been taking the sub as perscribed for the past 5 years two 8mg per day--(sometimes 3-but no more than 60 per month so I'm considering a stable amount).

I actually started suboxone about a year after it was legal. Withdrew from it twice in those early days so problems may have been from H, Oxy's ...but 1st time that I stopped I was fine, just a weird withdraw and led back to using. (stupid I know). Second time was physically bad. ER. Could not get out of bed. had to throw bed away from body fluids...a mess. OK-Then I was on 2mg for two years but it turned out that my body was in a weird state of constant withdrawal from that and developed bad tachycardia. (heart rhythm problem). So, put on 16mg per day and here I am.

Did I mention that I am terrified? Rambling typing is one of my detox symptoms so I may become chatty. If so I have a story about local resources and trying to find alternative treatment. Lets put it this way. In my state, they collect billions in fines and that money is supposed to be used to help drug addicts. It pays salarys for these places to operate but they are not real helpful from what I've experienced so far. And yeah I am taking names and numbers and I may have a report for the governor's office after this.

Any replies appreciated. Thanks.

  • Do you have access to a methadone clinic? That might be your best bet if you can't get another sub doc to take you on. I don't think any incarnation of the "Thomas method" is going to help very much when your dosage was so high. And you should do a CWE on the T3's, or else you are going to consume way more than a safe dose of APAP in order for the codeine to even be a speed bump for your WD's. But if you end up not being able to find help from a medical professional, you may want to add DXM and PST to the mix since those are quickly available, but don't expect any miracles. And even if you can't get another doctor who deals with addiction to help you out, you should at least explain your situation to a GP and get some clonidine.

    Not trying to freak you out even more, but for you the shit is about to hit the fan.
    - Coolwhip, 8 months ago
  • Thank-you so much for the reply. Yep I was at the 2 methadone clinics yesterday. One said no and the other one said no but that I could fill out an application but that by doing so I would be making "work" for them and that by making work for this person I was not going to get any help. Seriously I want to record this BS because I am being 100 per cent honest with these people and hearing nothing but BS. OF course all of who I have talked to say that they do not believe that my doctor could cut me off like that-(for non payment. I didn't have my fee.They are not a private doctor and they even have a sign that says that they cannot refuse to see someone. Perfect urine tests for over five years etc.)

    Physically I am doing fine for now. Waiting for it to set-in. It has been since Thursday morning and this is Saturday afternoon. I'm guessing that I had a large build-up in my system and that it hasn't even started to dissipate yet. I can only hope that any withdrawal symptoms like vomiting, heart-rhythm, are as insidious. Still no appetite but I am able to eat.

    I'm going to look up PST. The other thing is that I am in the acute phase of menopause right now. So--I am hoping that with that and the length that I have been taking the suboxone stably that may affect the effects? What I mean is that due to the menopause, I have already been having extreme insomnia for the past six months. Also--I've had menopausal hot-flashes, (not the kind of hot-flash from the suboxone- a little different). Since Thursday, I have had my 1st two nights of "real" sleep that I've had in a looong time.

    Don't worry I am not deluding myself, just hoping and trying not to panic. I will update here unless this thread is moved. I posted here because it looked like some people here knew what they are talking about. I have been in other forums but so many stupid recommendations.....
    - waiting4, 8 months ago
  • this is not advanced discusssion.
    - sekio, 8 months ago
  • I'm a little bit lost here Sekio. Can you please point me in the right direction if this is not the correct?

    I also called one other methadone clinic but they would not make an appointment for me and tried to mess with my mind with nonsense. That is what pretty much every "expert" or paid professional has done so far and I have contacted quite a few since Thursday. I also discovered that in my state the fines charged by courts for driving offenses and misdemeanors are what pay the salary and costs for Drug treatment. These people do not know that I have friends in the governor's office so at this point I am taking names. I just hope that my report is coherent, and that I survive to tattle-tale on these jerks.

    DXM-I'm confused. So would it help the suboxone come off my receptors faster, or help it stay on longer??? That doesn't really matter, what matters most to myself is not dying. And stomach issues. I have not been to the drug store yet, that's my goal for later today since I'm thinking that it could get to a point where i cannot leave the house except to go to the ER. And I still apparently have a window of time to stock up. Some Robitussin and Imodium on hand? And would the two counteract? I cannot do a CWE. So I'd probably use no more than 2 of the T3s. But I'm actually trying to avoid other opiates at this point just in case I am able to get back on the Suboxone.
    - waiting4, 7 months ago
  • PST is poppy seed tea, poppy pod tea would be much, much better but you can't exactly get those in a hurry(gotta order them online). You need them in bulk from a place where they sell them loose buy the pound, not just containers from a grocery store.(think whole foods, health food stores, a co-op, etc.). And DXM is dextromethorphan, look for gel caps not cough syrup since you want DXM to be the only active ingredient and most the syrups have other stuff in them. And maybe this isn't a common experience, but avoid caffeine at all costs once your WDs start, it seems like a good idea because you want the energy but it's always made it so so so much worse for me.

    And if you can, find something different than antihistamines for sleeping, they always made my RLS and akathisia worse during WD's. Try to get some benzos or z-drugs. The only other thing I can think of that might help is black seed oil which you can find at middle eastern grocery stores.

    I feel really sorry for you, and hope you can find some way to make it through this. Good luck.

    edit: ADD is for theoretical drug discussion, Sekio has already moved your thread to the proper area, you don't have to do anything else.

    Nothing that you or I have mentioned are going to affect the clearance rate of the buprenorphine(besides maybe messing with liver enzymes a little bit). And the only things that actually hit the the mu-receptors would be the codeine(pro-drug for morphine) and the immodium which is a peripheral MOR agonist(doesn't cross the brain blood barrier). And of course poppy seed tea, which will contain some small amount of opioid alkaloids(like codeine and morphine). Everything else are just "comfort meds", they can help with the symptoms of withdrawal but have no direct effect on it. And while wanting to avoid taking any more MOR agonists is noble goal I really think you should consider doing a cold water extraction on those T3s because 2 or 3 probably isn't going to do shit and you are going to be hurting, I would at least do the CWE on the codeine before resorting to getting more dope(as mentioned in your first post). But when you are coming off that huge a dose of bupe(which is an extremely potent partial agonist) anything besides other powerful recreational opiates is just going to be like sticking your finger in the leaking dike.

    Generally, if you aren't in poor health and aren't a poly-drug addict, even extremely severe opiate withdrawals aren't fatal it's just about doing what you can to maintain your sanity and decrease your pain until they are over. I'd really try to get some clonidine from your family doc, its going to help more than anything besides more MOR agonists or maybe benzos and its not a drug of abuse so your doctor shouldn't be to reluctant to prescribe it.(assuming you don't already have low blood pressure or heart problems or something.)

    And I guess I should add a disclaimer that I am in no way trained or qualified to be giving you or anyone medical advice, I'm just another junkie.
    - Coolwhip, 6 months ago
  • I dont know where you live, I live in America and this is what I would do if I were in ur situation.
    (This is not a recommendation really, just what I would do)

    1. Id try to get some form of opiate/oid. (pref heroin)
    2. At the same time Id be calling detox places trying to reserve bed for tomorrow
    (If this works- take heroin, wait for withdrawal, then take methadone they give you) Most likely the first 24-48 hours would be miserable cause the dose of methadone would be so low, eventually ud get enough in ur system.

    If 1&2 are not an option-

    3. Id got to the ER and tell them your exact situation. As long as you don't run into some asshole you should at least get clonidine and valium/ativan

    4. some variation of the above

    wish you well.
    - Zerrr, 5 months ago
  • Thank-you Seiko! I don't consider myself sober here but it is a great goal.
    Actually I do tend to have ultra low BP and body temp as well. So if I ever am ill, I practically have to get a blood test to look for germs because "sick"-my vitals actually look normal, (compared to what they usually are).
    But in withdrawl one of my symptoms is tachycardia. So once that sets-in my BP could be all over the place.
    I hate that this is the weekend so it is looking like I may have to go to ER and then hopefully they will transfer me to the detox unit. If it gets bad. The inpatient places that I called said that they use suboxone to DETOX people and that they DO NOT detox people from suboxone. One that I chatted with online said that if my insurance was good that they would send me a plane ticket for California--but then I was looking at TMZ and the top story was an actress who was in a California rehab who was not given medical withdrawl for her alcohol addiction and she died. (I took that as a sign).
    The other place said that I need 14 grand upfront-for a nice comfy medicated detox. I don't have that.
    So it looks to me like it could go as far as 96 hours before I feel real bad. Probably sooner. If I make it through the weekend I think that I'll have a better chance of having more options. Right now i am just pretty lethargic. And I had a really nice nap. Going psychotic would probably be a blessing, but so far I cannot wish myself into that state.
    Thanks for the tip about caffeine. But yeah I don't want to withdraw from that too so I have to have a little of that.
    The rls didn't start yet and i was planning on using antihistamine for that. So ty, I will remember that.
    - waiting4, in 4 months
  • Hey waiting for.. sorry you find yourself in this mess and welcome to BL=D.. greedy pain and addiction Drs.. seems like allot of that going around. Are you in the states? >How to Complain About Your Doctor (http://www.realsimple.com/health/first-aid-health-basics/what-to-ask-your-doctor/how-to-complain-about-your-doctor-10000001532445/index.html)< another thing is that if you are in the states acess to your medical records is your right.. just make an official request for you records and they have to provide them to you in a timely fashion, then you can look through them and see what that Dr put down as the reason you were cut as a patient and bring these to any future appointment to facilitate faster care. IDK something doesn't seem to be adding up, I mean why are all these places refusing you service?

    By blood pressure medication do you mean clonidine? The medications I would get to promote the most comfortable and quickest withdrawal are clonidine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clonidine) >here 2 (http://www.drugs.com/comments/clonidine/for-opiate-withdrawal.html)< and a drug like nuerotonin (http://www.rxlist.com/neurontin-drug.htm) >here (http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=81568)< >here (http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=80286)< >here (http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/612223-Gabapentin-for-opiate-withdrawal)< other drugsfor the Restless legs syndrom>here (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/restless-legs-syndrome/DS00191/DSECTION=treatments-and-drugs)<.

    You can do this.. seven years is a long long time to be on subs.. maybe look at this a the door to a whole new life because it could be.

    The addition of loperamide will help with the withdrawals in the short term but it will ultimately cause you to stay in acutes for a longer time and many people I see just become physically dependent on them.. so I would not use any opiat at all.. and yes lope does cross the blood brain barrier but is broken down to quick to facilitate a "high" but not before it antagonizes the opiat receptors, and the key to getting out of acute withdrawal and physical dependence at some point is not to antagonize these receptors ever.
    - neversickanymore, in 4 months
  • TY neversick! Yes my DR. who retired said that he used Clonidine for 20 years to detox his patients. I was unable to take it because of my low BP, but once I am in Withdrawl I will probably be allowed. I am planning on complaining to the practice/office also my GP is there so he will I hope want to talk to the sub doctor and ask her what the F. It was an outstanding bill for one visit-(which I have done before-not too often), and I did not have the full payment for that visit.
    I don't want to get this doctor in a lot of trouble because she has been OK, but I think she just had some personal probs. of her own that made her stick to whatever boundaries she has. She did warn me before that she is never available on weekends but I sure did not think that meant fridays either because I called on Friday and by that time I had the payment and she never returned my call.

    And the medicine that I have on hand is Inderal (propranolol). I'm wondering if that would work as well?

    I could also use some prayers here if anyone is inclined.
    The best outcome would be that I could just stay home and this crap would eeek out of my system and then I would only have to deal with cravings. If it doesn't get too intense that is my intention and why I am holding-out on the T3's or the half roxy that is right next to my desk. Seriously if I make it to day 10 I will dispose of that. I have 9 days without subs as my benchmark because I heard somewhere that it shows in the urine for that long or something like that.

    And the menopausal hot-flashes are worse than anything that any drug withdrawl will throw at a person, so I'm immune to that at this point it just doesn't bother me.
    - waiting4, in 4 months
  • As it blocks the receptors of epinephrin I would assume that it does as many of the withdrawal symptoms are directly related to adrenalyn and clonidine is used to prevent the release of norepinephrine. So if the Inderal is preventing its reception and clonodine is preventing its release I would think that the Inderal would help. I detoxed off a large methadone, roxy, and xanax habit and received beneficial results from the clonidine so if this is something you can eventually use i would try it. So are you then able to get your script filled on monday?


    EDIT: prayers sent:)
    - neversickanymore, in 5 months
  • No I am not able to get any suboxone for sure 'till thursday. As far as I know that is the only day that my doctor is in and I made an appt. for next thurs. when they refused me last Thurs. If I am not deathly ill by then-I really don't want any. And if i have to take some other opiate, well, then I have to deal with precipitated withdrawals or avoiding that.

    If I get a hold of the practice office maybe they will contact her-she has a separate office from the main GP. Another prob. I am having is trying to switch doctors. The methadone program had some 30-day rule (where you have to be out of another dr.s practice for 30 days)-and I said well it has been exactly 30 days and they said no, your prescription just ran out and the clock starts ticking there. I know that I am hearing a lot of bs from these "professionals", but this is what they are saying. Also they are telling me that I could not be refused for financial but the dr would have seen me on thurs. if I had the payment then.
    - waiting4, in 6 months
  • red tape.. need to find a way to cut that shit.

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pN2UEKvj-cA/UJvFTcw8AxI/AAAAAAAAAS0/L2c7ZtjasP8/s320/tnm-covered-red-tape-bureaucracy.png

    http://www.businessreviewcanada.ca/sectors/red_tape_-_color.jpg

    best way to cut it is decide to quit and set yourself free;)
    - neversickanymore, in 6 months
  • And ty neversick for sending prayer. Ha ha-yeah the red-tape is crazy. My parents were/are still involved in a red-tape nightmare from hurricane Sandy, (direct hit from storm house was under-water) so when I told them my dilemma they were skeptical but after my mom tried to call my dr they believed me.
    - waiting4, in 8 months
  • well so your last dose was thursday rite.. you should have like a three or four day window until the withdrawal start for real. so maybe monday.. then about ten or so days of acutes.. wont be that bad if you can get the correct meds.. but then I fear your paws might be significant as you have been on maintenance for so long.. but you will have to do it sometime if you ever want to get free.. if you switch back to the H.. you will need to be careful and not rely on the subs protecting you so much.. and remember everyday you will loose some of the protection of the bupe so you will have to adjust your dose.. man why not just jump off?
    - neversickanymore, in a year
  • Yes-that is what I am hoping for the most. Just jumping off. If that is possible. I'm thinking that if I can hold out til Monday, and if it seems like I need some sub. I should be able to get someone to phone some in for me or just see another dr. Really jumping is what I would like to be able to do, but everyone says "taper" is the way to go.
    I've already decided that if it has to be a taper that I'll have my mom hold it for me-she is like a demon when it comes to being tough.
    I still have my drug-addict mentality so that is a problem for me, but I'm looking at my past years of treatment as somewhat of a "success", as far as treatment goes. Even though it was always my intention to taper myself down, (and I quit trying to do that a long time ago)-----I actually was using as prescribed. If that makes sense.
    - waiting4, in a year
  • Sorry to hear that you're getting jacked around, especially at two methadone clinics. Try not to go back to the H if you can help it. For now just try the immodium and inderal. What would happen if you just showed up at the doctor's office Monday? They must have other doctors there that can help you because they have your physical records. It is terrible that they won't accommodate you after all these years.

    If you start feeling really poorly before then, the emergency department would be my next option. I'm hoping that your blood-pressure meds will help. I think clonidine might work better since it's an alpha 2 agonist and would help with possible tremors besides blood pressure. Where the Inderal is a non-selective beta blocker (different class of drugs) which mainly addresses heart rate and blood pressure.

    The menopausal thing sucks completely on it's own. When I was using oxys heavily, I went 13 months with no period so my OB assumed I was going through the change. Put me on hormone replacement because the sweats were so bad I had to change nightshirts sometimes 2-3 times a night. Then when I dropped down to Percocet, the periods came back like nothing happened and all those symptoms went away, go figure! This was seven years ago and I was just 42.

    Don't hesitate to go to the ER if you feel it's too intense. On Monday be a squeaky-ass wheel because you know they get the grease unfortunately. I really feel lots of these doctors have no good education on suboxone. To just drop you like this with no taper is inhumane in my opinion. I hope you can get some resolution soon, just hang in there! <3
    - T. Calderone, in 2 years
  • Yes-now that I have looked it up it appears that Clonodine would be safer for me and the other bp meds are not indicated unless I am in Tacycardia. At that point I should really see a doctor anyway.
    The idea that my period could return over this did occur to me since this is a major shock to my system. That would really suck! But I'm pretty sure that I'm over that. The waiting and wondering is just nuts on its own. I don't seriously feel like much of it at all has cleared out of my system yet. (from Thursday am). But I am thankful that I have made it this far. My pupils are still on the smallish side but not pinned like they normally are for myself.-So I'm using that as a gage. Also, I have not sneezed once yet and that will be another signal for me that the detox is officially started.
    I really would not mind going inpatient for 21 or so days to get a proper medically monitored detox. If I could find somewhere that i could afford etc.
    - waiting4, in 2 years
  • By the way the pain that initially got me started on abusing opiates is something that i have seen mentioned elsewhere in this forum. It is a condition that actually is NOT helped by narcotics-(as far as I could tell), but it took a long time to diagnose. the thing is called Trigeminal Neuralgia -a facial nerve pain that can masquerade as tooth nerve pain. Well they did root canals on almost every single one of my teeth and then said it was probably TN.

    When I found out that was what i had, "Dr Google" and online resources said that it would only come and go-(it did), and get progressively WORSE-it did, with basically no treatment for the pain or cure except maybe surgery. And that there was a brain operation to cut the nerve but that since it is a brain operation, it was risky. I was still experiencing the TN for a few years on the Suboxone but then it went away completely. I am afraid that it could come back but I really don't think that it will. Since i had had shingles many years ago in that same area on my face, it was probably from that. The thing there was that nerve damage pain from shingles is only supposed to last for five or so years after having shingles, and this was way after that-over ten years past that. but it was in the same area and at the time that I had shingles and even when I was a kid and had chicken pox, the sores were inside my ear--so it seems that area was "prone" or the virus was living on those facial nerves?
    Anyways--I'm just posting this here in case anyone is suffering from TN. There really isn't much you can do but wait-out an attack, and once I saw a photo of the nerve involved putting pressure on the skin above the nerve seemed to help. But-please don't believe everything that they say online. They make it look hopeless and almost suggest that a bullet is the only cure--(yeah if you have this that thought occurs during an attack but I even worked through some of it it is survivable). --But my point is that in my case it did not just keep getting worse. It did for a few years but I have been in remission from it for much longer than anything that I was able to find online said. Once i saw an image of the Trigeminal nerve and I thought that i could feel it spazzing when I was having an attack of the pain, and all I could do was put pressure there with my hand or ice-pack, and soon after that it did not come back. So did the shingle nerve damage heal? I don't know-it should not have been shingle-pain. But that is what happened to me not what was predicted.
    - waiting4, in 2 years
  • The neurontin may help with this as well as the withdrawal.. and actually I had really good luck with methadone for neurological pain, but the analgesic properties of methadone only last 4-8 hours so it has to be redosed as such. I know just how bad nerve pain can be<3 and I hope you find an answer. check out the link on the neurontin as it is commonly used for nerve pain and works much better for most than narcotics. >here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabapentin)<
    - neversickanymore, in 2 years
  • So I came across this statement:Abrupt discontinuation of Suboxone can lead to panic attacks, seizure, heart failure and severe depression. http://www.thehillscenter.com/addiction/suboxone/can-use-lead-to-addiction/. I decided to call my general physician answering service. Asked to have dr call. Dr called. She had no idea what Suboxone is! She did not have me in her files. (I have been a patient there for over ten years). This was a "doctor" on call. She got real bitchy with me and said that I sounded "fine". She said that i should call my suboxone dr. on Monday. I said OK-but I already called her two times on Friday and my mother tried to call her on Thursday. This on call dr said that i was calling about a psyciatric emergency. I said no, I am calling because I just read something that said "heart failure" and seizure, and I stopped taking t---she kept cutting me off. Then she said that she was going to see my suboxone dr. on Monday and that she "better" hear that I called her.(!)---I said well then why don't you just ask her if I called her two times on friday and i will try to call her on Monday but I am only going to call someone who does not call me back so many times.
    I didn't mention that I may have had heart failure by then. She said that she had no idea what suboxone is and that it was a psychiatric drug and that I was not going to have a seizure or heart failure. how would she know that if she doesn't know what it is? The dr that i see is not in a psyc. office it is an addiction office but the dr is probably a psychiatrist? So that is why she was assuming that I was an annoying mental patient?--(that is how she talked to me). I wrote down what she said to me before she hung-up. I also wrote down her name. She said, "I am not going to have this discussion with you-click".!
    - waiting4, in 2 years
  • IMO i would chill a little on this approach.. kinda a dont poke the animals approach.. cause opiate withdrawal doesn't cause a heart attack unless you were pretty much going to have an attack in the first place and this and many other warnings (if i had to guess from the damn PDR- physicians desk reference~ more of what is in there was written by lawyers working for doctors) are designed to protect the medical community from getting sued so if you poke the animals they usually poke back;)

    http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc7/c0.45.180.180/s160x160/4848_114940204111_200729_a.jpg

    https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/6462566656/h677BFDEC/
    - neversickanymore, in 2 years
  • Yep-if the pain comes back I will go straight to a nerve med. Narcotics didn't really do anything for a sharp nerve pain, maybe dulled it a little.
    The heart-attack scare is one I have been preoccupied with and I was trying to figure that out.
    So I'm guessing that I am so used to my monthly appt. where they check my pulse and pressure and since I did not have that this month it is a mental withdrawal from that in a way. Also I tend to have fibrillations in w-drawl but this only seems to be happening now when I'm on the verge of panicking about this situation.
    Also at this point I am afraid to take anything unless it has been prescribed and I'm pretty sure that I may need something to help me get through this. Even Imodium-I'm wondering if that could cause precipitated w-drawl if I can go back on the suboxone. At this point I'm hoping to talk to a medical professional but unfortunately I'm not having any luck with that either.
    I found a number for the local detox unit and I have it in my phone. If I have to call anyone else I will try them.
    - waiting4, in 2 years
  • Nice way to plan ahead.. i really dont think you will get bad until monday or so.. so you have a little time :)
    - neversickanymore, in 3 years
  • Loperamide (Imodium) does act well as a suboxone substitute. When withdrawals begin to hit take 10-12mgs to start and wait 4 hours, if you are still experiencing WDs take another 10-12mgs, repeat again in 4hours~. Don't exceed more than 40mgs/day.

    Loperamide works as an opioid-receptor agonist and acts on the μ-opioid receptors just as suboxone and other opiates(oids). It has limitations with crossing the BBB (blood brain barrier) thus restricting you from getting a buzz/high but it does work similar to suboxone at fulfilling the receptors need for the drug.

    Goodluck <3 Trust me.

    This should not be used as a long term substitute to suboxone. It should be used to get you through the initial withdrawal period only.
    - stardust.hero, in 3 years
  • If you knew you were going to be running out why did you continue taking 8mg BID??

    Even if you had gone down to one a day you probably wouldn't have even noticed the difference. When I was at 16mg/ day I know I cut down to 4mg per day overnight and had absolutely no withdrawal symptoms. Now I'm at 2mg per day. I ran out a while back and had to buy some to keep myself afloat. I cut down to .5-1mg/day and had absolutely no symptoms.

    You could have been fine if you'd have stretched that out a bit. Try to find another eight or two from wherever and take 2mg a day.
    - Hammilton, in 4 years
  • Yeah- that was dumb. I go every month for DR visit and urine test. I've been having a little trouble with my payment---this particular place took my insurance for years and then changed policy about two years ago. So when I went for the appt. I was hoping that being there was more important than having the $$.--nope, I have not saved any and if I had i would have run out at some point, so I guess I thought that as long as I was under medical care that it would be OK?

    So I had another FULL night of sleep. (insomnia/terrible/worst-ever--for the past six months or so).........................any severe symptoms are taking awhile. Giving me some time I guess to think about this while the crap oozes out of my system.

    I have not been outside of the house or changed my clothes since Friday but I'm out of smokes now and someone else is using the car so I may have to attempt a bike trip to the store. I was up earlier but the task seemed too monumental so I just went back to sleep. I'm very lethargic--but it really is not bad-(yet). Its not the kind of lethargic where I feel like I should be doing something, so that is not too bad ---and not that overly-drugged kind of tired/nodding-out, either. Some chills and nothing else worth complaining about, except the worry of course.

    After that great night of sleep I thought back to the old days trying to detox using over-the-counter that had anti-histamine for help sleeping and I was so thankful that someone here mentioned that that could bring-on RLS----nope, not yet.
    - waiting4, in 4 years
  • Update--I know that something is not right with the way that I am being treated here (not meaning this forum ha ha-but here where i am.Ty everyone here and i am hoping the best for you all). I have decided to journal, with names etc. everything for a couple reasons. One--OK-I know that I am being dramatic here, but "just in case", something goes seriously wrong, I want my kids to be able to have this investigated. And 2--I am considering contacting the legal departments of my insurance and the various numbers and places that I have contacted. Also my report for the governor if I pursue that-and for my own mind as well.
    I'm working backwards from today on that and I got to the part about the nasty woman who I spoke with last night when I called my GP's office. I looked up her name and she is not a doctor. I don't know what she is but I asked her twice if she was a doctor and she was evasive and insulted by that question with a jargon answer. I wish that I had a recording of that call it was really nasty and I'm thinking about calling her again if I can figure out a way to record it haha. (yes it was that bad).
    I don't want to mention the "L"-(legal department), word to these people yet because I am worried that my non-existent care could even become worse if that is possible.
    I'm going to try and make it through today and then go to the GP office tomorrow. If I feel truly horrible I may just go to the ER and at least have my vitals, BP heart-rate checked. Right now I am fine but very nauseous. I would think that I should be able to speak to someone in my doctor's office about this but I guess not.
    - waiting4, in 4 years
  • If you are not planning on jumping off this medication why dont you get some loperamide or kratom and just take a deap breath.. i really think you are getting all worked up and will see little or no benefit out of the actions you are trying to take. Infact you may just get negative results.

    kratom >here (http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/493024-Utilising-Kratom-for-Opiate-Withdrawal)<
    loperamide and withdrawals >here (http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/604512-OTC-Loperamide-for-Withdrawal-Amazing)<

    hang in there<3 but i would consider getting this kinda quick as you will likely be in full withdrawal buy tonight or tomorrow.
    - neversickanymore, in 4 years
  • This is one of those nightmare scenarios everyone on ORT is scared to death of having happen to them! I feel for you, I really do....16mgs of Suboxone is a very high dose to just jump off of, and the chances of it not being "that bad" after 5 years is pretty low. Cold Turkey in this situation is "doable" sure, but unless that was my only option I would go another route...

    I had a kind of similar situation a few years ago...I got dropped by my Suboxone doctor for dirty urines...After that, I switched to methadone. After testing dirty 5 times in a row for benzos, I got kicked off methadone as well. I tried to get on methadone at another clinic, but what I didn't realize is that there was a database in place that all the methadone clinics had access to....The doctor that kicked me off methadone wrote a notation that I needed "a higher level of care"...This essentially blackballed me from getting on methadone on any clinic in my state! Also, what could possibly be considered "a higher level of care" than methadone?

    I've been kicked off of Suboxone by 2 or three different doctors, not proud to say, but they've always written me one last script to detox myself with when they terminated me as a patient. To not do that, particularly with someone on 16mgs a day, is just inhumane!

    Everything you could possibly do in this scenario has been mentioned already. when I got kicked off Suboxone and methadone, I was barely using them as prescribed anyway...I was pretty much on heroin full time and just using the Suboxone as a backup...so I guess I just got what I deserved, but in your case, this just seems extremely unfair, to say the least...

    A detox will give you methadone or sub...Then there's an actual methadone clinic...There's some ER doctors that will write you and emergency script for Sub...there's getting other opiates to tide you over....there's a lot you can do other than just sit there waiting to get sick, because when that sickness kicks in, you'll be lucky to have the power to even make phone calls and drive yourself around! Have a plan in place for what you're gonna do now! Don't wait!
    - BlueHues, in 4 years
  • Thank-you so much for caring and understanding everyone. For now I'm thinking that to start taking anything other than suboxone would surely lead to my future-self feeling worse than I do right now--(which is still not too bad). IF I were to get back on it this week. My current plan is to see my GP tomorrow and ask for something for my stomach and check my blood-pressure etc. and maybe whatever non-narcotic that they can recommend. I am praying that this doesn't hit me too hard and there is still that chance.

    I know that any time that I ever saw anyone post something like that I would think-HORRORS!......yes I know that it is not likely and I guess it is more likely that I just had a lot of this in my system and it is taking it's time to make me ill.

    I have not mentioned that I wasn't exactly happy with the suboxone, but I am too much of a drug-addict and a chicken to have decided to taper. Or if I ever did make that decision, it didn't last a day. But I consoled myself that maybe by not completely abusing the drug, or other substances, that I was at least a candidate for recovery.

    Right now I don't even have any doctor's orders to follow or not follow ha ha, so the best that I can do is wait it out until it gets too hard to cope.

    No offense meant to anyone who would handle this some other way. The thought of, "oh-maybe enough is out of my system, at least maybe I could reward myself with a nice high or at least be able to do something", has crossed my mind a few times. But I have always thought that this suboxone is a really weird drug, and although I don't feel "well" right now, I really am liking the chance to clear some of this crap out of my head.

    I also know that if I were feeling a little bit better, that it could actually be a trigger for me to get busy finding some way to drug myself or feel even better than that. Like I may be getting to a point where I'm too under the weather to care. And if it is bearable physically, I actually feel a little bit more mentally stronger to fight cravings-(only had some mild ones really not even as bad as nicotine-cravings so far).

    I do not consider myself anywhere near sober, but maybe Seiko was on to something by moving this here for me? More being hopeful--if I actually make it to day 8 or 9, ok if I make it a week, THEN I will begin to covet sobriety. I don't want to fool myself too much when everything that I have experienced and studied tells me that the worst, (physically) has not started yet. But during those past somewhat miserable years on suboxone, I was hoping that maybe there was a chance that I could just "walk-off" of it.-OK I'll shut up now that is the crazy talking.
    - waiting4, in 4 years
  • Ouch your in for a painful month.
    - crimsonjunk, in 4 years
  • Well-I made it to monday morning without dieing. And without any wear and tear on my body either from what I can tell.
    So let me update: On sub since about a year after it was legal. Started at 4mg per day with the 2mg orange tablets. Went off it twice. The 1st time----shortly after starting and a weird withdrawal but very very doable IF I had known what to expect. (about a month after that someone put some pills in my hand and I was weak and dumb).
    Then, on for about 3 years at 4mg and being weaned to 2mg. Was on 2mg for about a year. THAT year was spent in "eternal"-withdrawal and my body was in BAD SHAPE from that. My heart rhythm was screwed-up at that point.
    Changed doctors. Two 8 mg tablets-then the strips per day, or 60 per month for what I think is a little over five years.

    On Thursday I used 8mg in the morning. I lived through the weekend! Nauseous-yes. Lethargic-yes. Panic-attacks-a few (over this situation but not severe, just crying mostly).
    Now that it is Monday I can feel it setting in a little stronger but I still have not sneezed once yet. My heart is pounding fast but not erratic as far as I can tell and that just started when I woke up.
    It has been four days. 97---almost 100 hours, and I am "OK". Just wanted to update here in case anyone wonders what could happen although everyone is different.
    - waiting4, in 4 years
  • So I just found out that my doctor is sick. I knew something was up with her. They have now offered me a "detox" script. I said that I don't know and that maybe I should ct, but that I really wanted to talk to a doctor. They pushed me into making a choice between detox script and seeing Dr on Thursday continuing maintenance. A five day detox script.
    They said that they do not recommend cold turkey---finally someone at least says that, I thought I was going crazy.
    So I said OK-I'll take the detox script. Maybe the dr will call me because they have to call her for that but at least they should call me back.
    - waiting4, in 4 years
  • I was on Buprenorphine and Alprazolam for 4+years. I jumped off of everything all at once, and I didn't have cannabis to aid in the affair like I typically would for withdrawals. It really isn't a bad withdrawal. When I was cooped up with my girlfriend going through the same issue, it seemed a lot worse, but when I went to an in-patient for a month, I refused meds and I didn't have any problem until the second week. That just felt like a minor flu, with minor pain in my bones similar to growing pains. I also had a heart issue, coupled with several other worse ones, before I switched to Subutex, but if you're having problems with doctors that prescribe Suboxone, don't even bring up Subutex. Doctors like to protect prescription patent secrets.

    I hope everything goes well for you. Just know that if you end up going to methadone use, you're trading something a whole lot more worse for what you already had, and I haven't met many people that made it out of the clinics. Those that did make it out just left to get other opioids/opiates. Regardless of your decision, it is up to you to do it, so if you really want to stop, nothing will prevent you from doing so.
    - itsALLfake, in 4 years
  • ItsAll- You are my hero! And yes, On friday when I was at the M-done clinic, filling-out an application, for a minute there it looked like it would be possible to switch to that and it was tempting but I feel like I would be throwing away anything that I have gained by not being on a full-opiate. I did ask if anyone has used m-done to detox from suboxone but they looked at me like I was crazy. I don't have the transportation for that and I don't think that I could drive under those effects either so I'm not looking at that as an option.
    Still waiting to hear from DR. I'm laughing to myself at how she is going to figure out how to detox me IN FIVE DAYS! At this point I really don't want to take it. But it would be a relief to be under dr's orders and to have something on hand besides the T3s and half a roxy that I have been saving. (yes I am proud of myself for not using that yet)
    - waiting4, in 5 years
  • The elimination half-life of buprenorphine is 20–73 hours (mean 37) from Wikipedia. So at least half of this is out of my system? I have not been doing anything or eating much. So I'll just assume that I'm on the slow-end of this. With that line of thinking-it could all be out of my system by Wednesday?
    - waiting4, in 5 years
  • That is on one dose. I'm pretty sure when you take it for a few days, it builds up in your system. I remember seeing a chart somewhere on BL that showed a nice graph. I forget what the duration for taking 16mg/day was, but I think I remember seeing something like 246hours(ballpark of what I remember, of course) for half-life. I'll try to find that for you, but I wanted to respond fast since you're on here waiting it seems.

    Are you asking for drug testing purposes or sensory function?
    - itsALLfake, in 5 years
  • Thank-you itsall, and I am asking because I am trying to gauge my withdrawl progress. It was not a taper/wean, just a complete ct about one hundred hours ago. I understand about the build-up, but at my "stop-point" without adding anything else, I would think that detox would begin? Thank-you for any opinions or info. you can offer here.
    Still waiting to hear from DR. I'll call back after lunch if I don't get a call. My stomach is in knots, but nothing "violent".
    - waiting4, in 5 years
  • I'm a little confused over where you're currently at right now. I just stayed up all night, so I could make it in to work today. Attention span isn't the greatest of sorts at the moment. It's really hard to gauge how something with a pro-longed half-life on the sensory will get out. It could take the maximum time one day, and then, down the line, it could be out in the shortest of times. It's really dependent on your neurochemical output and absorption rate. If you're going to be completely idle, it will take longer than if you were engaged mentally and/or physically.

    The best thing to do is not to really worry about the time it's going to come into full gear. That will only make it that much worse. Drink plenty of fluids, have candy or whatever source of sugar you prefer at hand, and moderate caffeine intake won't hurt anything either. Video games and music production kept me from completely climbing up the walls on several occasions. Unfortunately, video games were sometimes the most physical demanding activity I would want to get involved with at that point in time, but always remember your mind really is making it a lot more harsh than it really is. If you can fight through it and move around, it will be a much more smoother process. Maybe it won't seem that way in the beginning, but it will, trust me.
    - itsALLfake, in 6 years
  • TY- ItsAllF, I hope that you don't have too hard of a day. All-nighters are the worst sometimes. Yep I have my faithful candy crush game as my most productive thing that I'm able to do lately.
    So I'm thinking that the max days that the substance would be excreted in urine-(I don't even know if any of it is "active" at that point)---is nine days. But then I was thinking-about the "half-life"-elimination, and if I go again by the max. known of about 75 hours, so that would mean that at 75 hours at least "half" of what was in my system is gone?

    Don't let my ramblings tax you ItsAll! I hope that you have a chance for a nap or something!

    Despite detoxing here, I have just had four of the best nights sleep that I've had in at least six months. I really think that stuff, (the suboxone)--had "turned"-on me if that is possible. Creepy-crazy insomnia where I will fall asleep exhausted and then wake-up thinking that it is six hours later but it has only been five minutes. (again, this was while I was taking the drug!).......I was chalking that up to the menopause that I've been going through, but it is entirely possible that the drug played a part.
    - waiting4, in 6 years
  • I work for family, and they know where I'm at with recovery and all. So I can leave whenever I want..luckily. I'd be effed in the ay if I didn't have a job with a family that knew I'm just 8months sober.

    Half-life means after 75hours, half of the substance is no longer playing a role in sensory function. This is just an example of the average half-life of Buprenorphine: http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=buprenorphine+half-life+chart&qpvt=buprenorphine+half-life+chart&FORM=IGRE#view=detail&id=CA05D36DDFE996D7B8CED4CD8FE7C5A18C2162B9&selectedIndex=4

    I would definitely say that it was the Buprenorphine causing your insomnia. After getting clean, I couldn't get enough sleep. If you're able to sleep well now, I would go as far to say that your withdrawal will be very moderate for Buprenorphine, nothing compared to a full agonist opioid. The more sleep you get, the better off you'll be through this trial. Since you've already started, I wouldn't go back to Buprenorphine to fix withdrawal symptoms. I would rather go with a shorter acting opioid...if I were to THINK I needed to do so.
    - itsALLfake, in 6 years
  • Great Link ItsALL! TY-----yeah, you know I'm thinking that if I were to take some suboxone, that would only put me back to where I was yesterday or the day before! And prolong the general misery.
    That 1st chart is for a "single" 16mg dose but still, even the massive accumulation has to eeek-out at some point I hope.
    Speaking-of family. Mine is aware of what is going-on but they do not understand how long it takes for w-drawl to set-in with this crap. (One retired from one of this countries best hospitals for detox/rehab and they still have zero clues) They are kind of hovering waiting for me to explode or something.
    So I am afraid to make any moans or even loud sighs ha ha.
    At least I know that they will insist that I get to the ER if I pass out or start looking real bad. Still no word from the doctor.
    - waiting4, in 6 years
  • To find the amount of time for any drug to be pretty much eliminated out of ones system just take 5 or 6 times the half life of the drug in question, unless the dosage is unusually high this will give you a really good estimate..

    100 mg of a half life ten hour drug..
    100-50 10 h
    50-25 20 h
    25-12 30 h
    12-6 40 h
    6-3 50 h
    3-1.5 60 h

    300 mg half life 10h drug

    300-150 10 h
    150-75 20 h
    75-40 30 h
    40-20 40 h
    20-10 50 h
    10-5 60 h

    kinda shows how 300mg of a specific drug is eliminated almost as fast as 100 mg of the same drug. and the nice chart that IAF provided is calculated to 185 or 5 times the average half life of BP or 37h.
    - neversickanymore, in 6 years
  • Dr's office called. five day withdrawl plan being sent to pharm. Take one 8mg first day, to breaking one film into quarters for the last day. I said "Will this work?" they said it will prevent withdrawl symptoms.
    I don't exactly trust this but I probably will pick it up. I am considering waiting until I begin actually vomiting, diarrhea, or passing-out before taking some. It still seems to me that this is only going to promote a build up of this garbage in my system and lead me right back to.......I don't even think I want to fool with the prescribed dose. if I do take some but probably what I will do is start with half a strip and see if I can only take it every three days or so? Just rambling here. I'm still worried and confused. And scared but at least this will buy me some time I guess.
    - waiting4, in 6 years
  • Stupidly--I assumed that half-life equaled about half the time it would take for it to be gone. Now I see from this program/chart it is saying about a month from now, if I don't take any more I will still have 1mg in my system? This really confuses me. Ugh.
    - waiting4, in 6 years
  • I said "Will this work?" they said it will prevent withdrawl symptoms.
    . prevent is likely to be strong a word.. but you can do this.. please look into the other medications that have been suggested.. not the opiat antagonists IMO though.. but the neurontin for sure.. I think you are taking a big step in setting yourself free.=D<3

    You should start to begin to get better from the acute withdrawal ten to fourteen days after last dose.. here is something to consider and possibly explore with your doctor about

    >Thread: Switching from Subutex to Morphine for faster withdrawal...bad idea? (http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/679773-Switching-from-Subutex-to-Morphine-for-faster-withdrawal-bad-idea)<
    - neversickanymore, in 6 years
  • Update. So I picked-up the 5 day detox supply, and some Imodium. Getting out of the house did make me feel much better. What was in the bag were 5 8mg strips. It said to take 1.5, 1,..... I seriously considered waiting, and then I decided that I really needed some relief and that I didn't get a chance to say, "good-bye", and that just one more would not make such a big difference in what could be a long process......

    I dissolved one strip. It made a huge difference in my mood. My physical symptom besides nausea was what I think of as squirrels in my stomach-nothing life threatening, but that was pretty annoying. I got a few odd stares from family members when they noticed that I had more than a few words to say after being pretty unsociable for the past couple days.

    Another idea that occurred to me is that maybe I should just go ahead and follow this 5-day detox almost exactly as prescribed. The dr. closed-out my case. That was the choice between waiting 'till Thursday to continue the maintenance or go for the 5-day detox plan which provided more immediate relief.

    So, now I have a choice.
    Do I go ahead and try this 5-day plan? I've actually never heard of it being done this quickly for someone on my amount and time of use.
    Do I try it and keep trying to find another sub. doctor just in case?
    Do I try to spread-out the 5 strips in what I would think is a more humane way? (just trying to figure-out my choices, and rhetorically asking but feel free to tell me what you would do or did).
    I could visit my GP and get that 2nd opinion, even though they do not prescribe the drug but just to have a doctor who knows what's going on. I could bite the bullet and not touch the remaining four strips.
    -or even spread them out to "a little"--every two days.
    I have a little bit of time to decide. Remembering the weird withdrawal symptoms reminds me of learning that some addicts are even addicted to THAT! I tried to psych myself up on the drive to the pharmacy and it really did help to be occupied and out and about, and music was just on the verge of starting to sound better. I also think that I detected a slight improvement in vision. There was a police car following me on a few miles of the drive-which normally makes me nervous, but that was fine. It was all fine really except I definitely felt much better about a half hour after consuming the 8mg strip.
    Ah-well. All of this thinking about the half-life etc. how long and how bad will it get and what should I be prepared for? I have a little break from that too.
    - waiting4, in 6 years
  • Like I said, I jumped off of Buprenorphine(at least 16mg/day..some days I would do 56mg+...which is probably just cuz I like snorting drugs+Alprzolam (at least 4mg/day...at least. some days would be 20mg), after being on it for over 4years. I didn't have a horrible withdrawal process what so ever.

    I can't say anything moral other than follow your doctors advice. Get a second opinion always about medication, especially if you're unsure of it. Being addicted to Buprenorphine sucks. You could of easily taken .5mg and would have been alright, but that would require a longer period of waiting for alleviating effects to come in. By our nature, we are not patient at all when it comes to the effects of taking drugs. If you want to be trapped in Buprenorphine maintenance then try to find another Buprenorphine doctor if you're not able to see you other one anymore. I don't know why a doctor would "close your case" because you needed medication. I haven't re-read your thread, so I don't know if you fucked up your last prescription or what the deal was, but Buprenorphine doctors are looked at extremely close by the DEA. So if you came in early for your prescription, he might have very well ended your treatment with that 5-day detox plan. Which will work if you follow the instructions.

    I am 25, so I'm sure being half your age played a role in me not withdrawing from a jump of >16mg. Like you've already noticed though, occupying your mind makes a tremendous difference in the withdrawal process, so do what you can to help you stay active. If you're going to have to go back to an opioid, I'd honestly recommend a full agonist, outside of methadone.
    - itsALLfake, in 6 years
  • Thanks itsall--The trouble was that I had an outstanding bill for one office visit, and then I did not have my full payment for the one that I went for so the doctor refused to see me.
    I have not spoken to the dr at all and I was told that she has been out sick so I don't even know what's really going on with her.

    The closing out of my case they said is the policy although that was never mentioned to me and I have had to sign agreements over the years and I never saw this. They actually did not have a "financial" discontinue in writing policy because they are publicly funded and i was under the impression that even though they require payment--they have a sign that they can not refuse to see anyone, so I thought that if I followed all of the written policies that I have signed, that i would be ok as a slow-payer.

    That was the choice that I was given on Monday. Wait 'till thursday or 5-day detox and close out my case. Like 5-day detox is what is offered as withdrawl for people on the drug, who are not coming back. By Monday, I had cold-turkeyed for 4 days already, and I was sure that another 4 days like that would be bad. I have journaled all of it and I have been working on my report, but some people are telling me to just "forget" it although I have verbally ratted-out the nasty person who I spoke with on saturday and they know that I know that that wasn't right.

    We had never spoken about going off the suboxone and I didn't even know about this 5 day detox policy that they have. I was a patient with this place before this dr arrived, and they have had a few suboxone dr.s before this one. Plus there was no office fee when I started, but a few years ago the fee started so I had to pay.

    I'm on day 4 of this detox and not feeling bad at all but I took 8mg monday, next day 8mg, next day, about 6mg, and today about 4--depending how much med is in the strips when I cut them. Tomorrow I'm supposed to take 4mg again and then nothing. (but it looks like I'll have a tiny bit or one strip left)......so except for the 4 days with nothing, and the decrease, I still have a loong way to go as far as detoxoing.

    If I actually get through this without being very sick, I will be very happy. Although I am concerned about paws/depression-and I'm being realistic that I could be feeling "bla" or worse than "Bla" for at least a month-If i could get through that I would still be very happy because I had been under the impression that IF/when I ever decided to wean-off...well I thought that it would take like 6 months or a year just to slowly lower the dose. And THEN have to deal with whatever withdrawal happened. So this could be a good thing.
    - waiting4, in 6 years

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