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500 Unmarked Mass Graves Found In The Ukraine

by eggheadbanga
Click here to read this story online:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1109/p20s01-lire.html

Headline: Backstory: A priest's crusade on Holocaust
Byline: Sarah Wildman Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor
Date: 11/09/2006

(PARIS)The confessions that Father Patrick Desbois receives don't come from his parishioners. They are not made behind closed doors. They don't even come from his countrymen. The words the French priest hears are the unburdening of villagers from Ukraine - the last witnesses to the mass killing of Jews in a little-known part of the Holocaust more than 60 years ago.
He recounts one story - just one of a thousand he's heard - of a Ukrainian woman who was ordered by Nazi soldiers to cook them dinner. As they ate, the 25 Germans went out in pairs to kill Jews. By the time the meal was over, they had shot 1,200. It was the first time the woman had ever told the story. "These people want absolutely to speak before they die," says Father Desbois of the bystanders. "They want to say the truth."
Father Patrick Desbois has become one of the world's foremost chroniclers of what the French call the Shoah par Balles - the Holocaust of bullets. Though neither Jewish nor Ukrainian, he spends half his year combing the poverty-stricken landscape of Ukraine to document the annihilation of tens of thousands of Jews at the hands of traveling bands of Nazis called the Einsatzgruppen.
It is a self-appointed task that led the Israeli newspaper Haaretz to decree him "Patrick the Saint." Embarrassed, Desbois calls the characterization a midrash - Hebrew for exaggeration.
The priest, who has devoted his clerical life to fighting anti-Semitism, is uncovering, village by village, unmarked mass graves from the Holocaust era. Here the Jews were shot, one by one, mother in front of child, child in front of father.
The "Holocaust of bullets" was every bit as brutal as the extermination of Jews by gas chamber, starvation, and other means at Auschwitz and elsewhere in Europe. Yet the depth and details of the tragedy in Ukraine have only recently surfaced.
In the local villages, teenagers and children were forced to help dig graves, pull gold teeth from the mouths of neighbors, and take piles of clothes away as their friends shivered, awaiting death. These children, now old men and women, have never been asked about what they saw, what they were forced to see. Never, that is, until they meet a humble priest walking through their woods in his clerical collar.
"This is very, very important," says Edouard Husson, a historian at the Sorbonne in Paris and a project consultant. The originality of Desbois's work is that "he was the first to have the idea to talk to the Ukrainian witnesses - the bystanders."
***
In his early 20s, as he crept toward a life of faith, Desbois was dogged by a question: "What does God want me to do?" Little did he know then, in the mid-1970s, that he would eventually answer that for himself by becoming a human bridge between the modern Jewish world and the Catholic Church and a major conduit through which the Holocaust would be remembered.
Desbois's journey to the woods of Ukraine is rooted in an unusual faith, an expansive humanity, and a personal tie. He was born in Burgundy, France, in 1955 to a family deeply affected by the German occupation. Two of his cousins were deported by the Nazis. His grandfather, like 25,000 other French soldiers, was held at a camp on the border of Poland, Ukraine, and Russia. "We felt ourselves to be in the same story as the Jews," says Desbois. Yet his grandfather always
said his internment was not nearly as awful as it was for "the others."
Desbois studied mathematics and spent several years teaching in the West African nation of Burkina Faso. At 21, he joined Mother Teresa for three months in Calcutta, caring for the dying. When he decided to make his life in the church, his secular-minded family was horrified.
After seminary, he briefly led the life of a "normal" priest - conducting baptisms and giving weekly sermons. He was soon appointed by the Cardinal of Lyon to aid the church's liaison to the Jewish community. Desbois was already studying Judaism. He had begun to learn Hebrew.
To this day, he helps organize conferences between Catholics and Jews, and leads Holocaust study tours for young Catholics and other students.
On one of those trips in the late 1990s, he stopped at the site of his grandfather's prison camp. A memorial there was all but destroyed. Over the years, as he worked to repair the marker, he kept asking about "the others." The mayor of the village showed him where the camp's Soviet prisoners were buried. "I said, 'OK, [and] where is the mass grave of the Jews?' " Desbois recalls. "He told me, 'I don't know. I don't know. We never found it.' And I said, 'How could it be that more than 10,000 Jews were killed in the village ... and you don't know?' "
A newly elected mayor remembered Desbois's question. The next time the priest returned, 110 farmers were waiting. "In one day, I discovered we could not only find mass graves with precision, but we could also find witnesses who ... were present at the execution." The mayor said he would help Desbois find the mass graves in 100 nearby villages. In 2004, with seed money from the Foundation for the Memory of the Shoah, a French group, the Ukraine project was born. Desbois's team has mapped 500 unmarked graves so far. He believes another 1,700 exist. "We have a duty to ask, 'Where are the graves?' " he says simply.
***
Desbois's offices are as modest as the man. Deep in working-class Paris, in a drab modernist building, a rickety elevator opens to a ramshackle office suite. The walls are laden with images of Jerusalem and a 2006 calendar of Jewish holidays. On a table sits a massive bronze menorah that B'nai B'rith International recently awarded him for his human rights work.
Desbois answers the bell himself. He has a full head of dark hair, and his hands move continuously as he explains his project. He is busy. He is tired. Wednesday he was in London meeting nine rabbis. One will oversee the research in Ukraine. Desbois is cautious that his work adheres to halacha, or Jewish law.
Desbois runs a lean team. A student in Germany combs police archives, which are cross-referenced against Soviet archives in Washington D.C., for period recollections. Then Desbois searches for three, unconnected eyewitnesses. He approaches them as a priest, in his collar, in his gentle manner. He reconstructs the massacres through their accounts - where the Jews walked, where the killers stood. Ballistic experts analyze shell casings found on the graves. Each witness is interviewed, photographed, and filmed.
"He never made anyone feel guilty," says Anne-Marie Revcolevschi, director of the French Shoah foundation, who has traveled with Desbois. "He is just trying to understand what happened."
Desbois takes out a series of black albums filled with photographs that could pass for 19th-century images. In rural Ukraine, the roads are unpaved, the faces of the people deeply lined. When Desbois's team arrives in the most remote areas, blocked by rutted roads, the people tell him: the Nazis made the same journey, simply to kill. He shows one photo of an elderly man weeping. Like other witnesses to the massacres, this man saw the grave "still moving" after three days: In every village, many were buried alive.
"It is not always easy," says Desbois of his work. "And when it is much too difficult, I always think [of] my grandfather [who] was here three years in a camp and saw everything. Me, I am free." He sighs. "What I want is for the place to be respected as human places," he says. "I want to recover the memory because nobody was witness [to this] except those people I find. And they are very old. So we have to run to save the memory."
(c) Copyright 2006 The Christian Science Monitor. All rights reserved.

Some comments

1. This priest's grandfather was almost certainly held in Rawa Ruska, then part of the Galicia district, now in the western Ukraine.

2. The Soviets investigated every city, small town and village in 1943-45, and uncovered the mass graves, but did not put up memorials, and often discouraged surviving/returning Jews from so doing.

3. There are however hundreds of memorials in Belarus, perhaps more than in the Ukraine because the occupation was so bloody in Belarus. Even still, quite a number of the grave sites became lost, yet as a recent excavation at Smoliarka near Brest show, it's easy enough to relocate the graves with the 1943-45 Soviet investigations.

  • But Hannover is always saying there are no mass graves - how could this be?

    :rofl:
    - Trojan, 7 years ago
  • [QUOTE=Milhouse Van Houten]Click here to read this story online:
    http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1109/p20s01-lire.html



    Thanks for this, MVH. I'm going to post it to AR, with attribution.
    - Globus, 7 years ago
  • If they found any mass graves, it is likely the handywork of the NKVD.

    NKVD 1 (http://web.archive.org/web/20041209191440/www.ukar.org/lvivpogr.htm)

    NKVD main (http://web.archive.org/web/20050305000508/www.ukar.org/shapov01.html)
    - Commander, 7 years ago
  • If they found any mass graves, it is likely the handywork of the NKVD.

    Except, of course, that the witnesses know very well who was responsible.
    - Globus, 7 years ago
  • If they found any mass graves, it is likely the handywork of the NKVD.

    NKVD 1 (http://web.archive.org/web/20041209191440/www.ukar.org/lvivpogr.htm)

    NKVD main (http://web.archive.org/web/20050305000508/www.ukar.org/shapov01.html)

    Accusations do not make it fact.

    Are you still in grief over MaudDib?
    - Trojan, 7 years ago
  • Except, of course, that the witnesses know very well who was responsible.

    Witnesses, sometimes their testimony is not the best. The case of John Demjanjuk (http://web.archive.org/web/20050222095333/www.ukar.org/demlinks.html) is a perfect example of this. If you recall, the Israeli Supreme Court threw out Mr. Demjanjuk's conviction.


    Accusations do not make it fact.

    Are you still in grief over MaudDib?

    That is a 2-way street.

    I am not in grief over MaudDib. My posting at SF is done mostly in the Canadian section, & I post in the computer area sometimes also. I have had little, [none really] direct involvement with him. I will say he does seem to know a few things about Zionists & their history. I recognize the fact that some others out there in cyberland, may have a somewhat more negative opinion of him.
    - Commander, 7 years ago
  • Witnesses, sometimes their testimony is not the best.

    That's not true. Testimony about large mass murders agreed upon by a mass of witnesses is excellent in terms of who [Nazis] committed the murders.

    Your Demjanuk example is ridiculous. That was a case of a few witnesses trying to identify a single perpetrators many decades later.
    - Globus, 7 years ago
  • That's not true. Testimony about large mass murders agreed upon by a mass of witnesses is excellent in terms of who [Nazis] committed the murders.

    Your Demjanuk example is ridiculous. That was a case of a few witnesses trying to identify a single perpetrators many decades later.

    I think you are dismissing the Demjanuk case a little too easily. It was a very large, well orchestrated effort to hang this man. I remember well when all this was going on. It caught my attention because Mr. Demjanuk was a member of the same union [different local] as me, at that time.
    - Commander, 7 years ago
  • I think you are dismissing the Demjanuk case a little too easily. It was a very large, well orchestrated effort to hang this man. I remember well when all this was going on. It caught my attention because Mr. Demjanuk was a member of the same union [different local] as me, at that time.

    I'm a bit fuzzy on the whole Demjanuk, NKVD, mass grave relationship.:confused:
    - Trojan, 7 years ago
  • I'm a bit fuzzy on the whole Demjanuk, NKVD, mass grave relationship.:confused:
    This is relevant. We are discussing the value of "witnesses", like for example, the ones mentioned in the story in post #1.
    - Commander, 7 years ago
  • I think you are dismissing the Demjanuk case a little too easily.

    No I'm not. Your making a false analogy. Identifying an individual 50 years after the fact is not the same thing as testifying to an event, along with numerous others.
    - Globus, 7 years ago
  • This is relevant. We are discussing the value of "witnesses", like for example, the ones mentioned in the story in post #1.

    And the value of witness can be very good, especially when testifying to obvious things, like whether something happened or not.
    - Globus, 7 years ago
  • If there are 1200 bodies shot by these men then I bet you will find plenty of other evidence, such as rifle, smg shells, documentation on the dead, etc, that might help to know who the culprits are.
    - Ambrosio Spinola, 7 years ago
  • If there are 1200 bodies shot by these men then I bet you will find plenty of other evidence, such as rifle, smg shells, documentation on the dead, etc, that might help to know who the culprits are.

    The article mentioned that they use ballistics experts to examine shell cases etc.

    The culprits have generally long been identified, at least in terms of units. West German investigators in the 1960s interrogated pretty much everyone surviving from police battalions and other SS units that served in these areas, and reconstructed events from that perspective.

    From what this article says, the French team seems to be using these investigative files - it says 'police files in Germany' - housed at Ludwigsburg.

    The French team aren't seeking evidence against specific individuals but simply trying to locate graves. You can easily prove a massacre happened, it's much harder to prove that specific individuals were involved. Also, if the unit involved just blew into town and blew out again, none of the locals would know names or even really remember faces. That's why relatively few men were prosecuted in the 1960s. You basically had to have evidence from another member of the same unit.

    That happened, but on a variable basis. Many Waffen-SS units managed to create a wall of omerta because of their cameraderie, and because they were networked in HIAG, by the time anyone investigated them. However sometimes extremely unpopular commanders could basically be given up by their subordinates. Fritz Knoechlein, who carried out the Le Paradis massacre of British soldiers in 1940, not only had the two survivors testify against him, but dozens of members of his unit. Evidently he wasn't much liked. The British didn't even need to interrogate him to get him to confess. He was bang to rights.

    :)

    The Demjanjuk case was completely different to these situations. There's the greater time-lag; another 20 years had passed compared to most 1960s trials, and memories were deteriorating proportionately, while faces were also ageing. There was also no corroborative evidence from other guards, which is the crucial difference between that trial and the West German trials.

    I think there was too much desire to see some kind of result, OSI wanted a big scalp instead of just deporting proven camp guards, and the Israelis were no doubt very keen to put the famous Ivan the Terrible on trial.

    Ironically Demjanjuk can be proven through documents to have been stationed at Sobibor, and indeed he even put down on his entry visa forms to the US that he'd been stationed there (!).
    - eggheadbanga, 7 years ago
  • I find they are starting the house from te roof. Make a throughout forensic study of the mass grave and then start looking.
    Would not be the first time that a mass grave gets tossed without much sencond thought into the German lap.
    - Ambrosio Spinola, 7 years ago
  • I find they are starting the house from te roof. Make a throughout forensic study of the mass grave and then start looking.
    Would not be the first time that a mass grave gets tossed without much sencond thought into the German lap.

    Actually, there is only one such time that anyone is aware of, and that kite didn't fly.

    :nopity:
    - eggheadbanga, 7 years ago
  • What are you talking about? The ex Soviet Union must be brim filled with NKVD mass graves. Did they not locate one near the infamous Babi Jar location near Kiev? Its hardly rocket science that if not closely monitored any unearther mass grave will be dumped unto the Germans first.
    - Ambrosio Spinola, 7 years ago
  • What are you talking about? The ex Soviet Union must be brim filled with NKVD mass graves.

    Actually, no. The Soviets preferred the One Big Grave model, much as they preferred to build the One Big Factory. That means that outside major regional capitals, there was One Big Mass Grave.

    Belorussian SSR - Kuropaty, outside Minsk. This was never attributed to the Germans. All the mass graves around Minsk dug by the Germans were on the other side of the city, or further out (Maly Trostinets). There weren't enough purge victims in Belorussia to fill any more graves.

    Moscow - two mass graves, one at Butovo and I forget the other one's name. Obviously these were on territory that wasn't even captured by the Germans.

    Leningrad - forget the name, the Germans never found it, no one ever alleged the Germans filled it

    Orel - Germans found a small grave in 1943, of people shot in 1941 during the retreat. Soviets pointed to other graves created by the Germans in 1942. There were virtually no Jews in Orel left by the time the Germans overran it in October 1941 anyway.

    Vinnitsa - Germans found a larger grave in 1943, Soviets avoided this one like the plague. Germans didn't make much of a fuss in their propaganda, either.

    Katyn - the one known instance where Soviets alleged that the Germans were responsible for one of their own graves. No one believed them.

    Did they not locate one near the infamous Babi Jar location near Kiev?

    Not that near, no. Babij Yar was also exhumed by the Germans before they retreated, so the Soviets didn't 'find' any bodies, just ash and other cremains.

    Its hardly rocket science that if not closely monitored any unearther mass grave will be dumped unto the Germans first.

    The Soviets tried this precisely once, at Katyn, because and only because the Germans had uncovered it. Everything else was kept a strict secret until the end of communism. None of the NKVD mass graves identified in the 1990s from KGB records correspond with German mass graves.

    Moreover, there is neither documentation nor eyewitness testimony to corroborate claims that the Soviets mass-executed millions of people more than the documentation and the eyewitnesses indicate.

    When Kuropaty was uncovered, all manner of Belarusian villagers came forward with their own eyewitness testimony as to what happened from 1937-39 at this site, that they had for obvious reasons been too terrified to relate until communism was on its last legs.

    Ukraine has been independent since 1991, has good reason to denounce Soviet crimes and has done so repeatedly. None of the findings in the Ukrainian KGB archives in Kiev, in archaeology or anything else, suggest that there was a super-secret program of mass executions hiding behind the already secret enough program of mass executions that is known about.
    - eggheadbanga, 7 years ago
  • Angry A.If they found any mass graves, it is likely the handywork of the NKVD.

    So what are you saying , or not saying or not accepting or trying to dismiss , or trying to ignore or trying to explain away or turning a blind eye to , as the case may be ?

    It always surprises me when you place the bodies on the table someone always manages to say it never happened or someone else did it - never Heydrichs boys , they gave sweets to Jews and showed elderly Russian ladies across the roads - anything else is either made up , forged or the NKVD did it as they were mostly jews.

    Maud dib - he ws always a great one for demanding to be shown bodies and graves = I guess he never actually looked for them , like this gent did.

    Angry A. - you do admit that J.D. was set free by an Israeli court , and Jewish Judge - no "Holohoax" endorsing , no lies etc.
    And the papers which freeded hi came from Russia , am I to believe that thse papers alone are the only ones not to have been tampered with - revisionists seem to have some phobia about evidence from Russia which says the Holocaust took place.
    Odd ???

    If there are 1200 bodies shot by these men then I bet you will find plenty of other evidence, such as rifle, smg shells, documentation on the dead, etc, that might help to know who the culprits are.

    As the Germans found at Kytan Wood ( ? Spelling of it ) - pot calling the kettle black.

    MillhouseThe culprits have generally long been identified, at least in terms of units.

    See Browning's Ordinary men for an example of this process.
    - cerberus, 7 years ago
  • I believe that the Germans killed somewhere around 9,000 people in Vinnitsia and claimed it was the NKVD. In the case of Lviv, while it is claimed that the NKVD killed the people in the prison, the massacre that was carried out by the local OUN is well documented by eyewitnesses.

    Oh, and did someone say something about Muadib?

    http://thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?p=223639#post223639
    - Captain Marinesko, 7 years ago
  • I believe that the Germans killed somewhere around 9,000 people in Vinnitsia and claimed it was the NKVD.

    No, the Germans actually killed 28,000 Jews in Vinnitsa and thousands of Ukrainians. The 9000 bodies dug up were indeed from the Terror of 1937.

    BFD. Documents show 700,000 were executed in 1937-38, they had to be buried somewhere.

    In the case of Lviv, while it is claimed that the NKVD killed the people in the prison, the massacre that was carried out by the local OUN is well documented by eyewitnesses.

    Um, no, there were two massacres. One of the Lviv prisoners, the second a massive pogrom by OUN with German encouragement. The Vernichtungskrieg exhibition in Germany had to close because photos of the two massacres by two separate sets of perpetrators got mixed up.


    Oh, and did someone say something about Muadib?

    http://thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?p=223639#post223639

    Internet-land rejoices today. :rofl:
    - eggheadbanga, 7 years ago
  • No, the Germans actually killed 28,000 Jews in Vinnitsa and thousands of Ukrainians. The 9000 bodies dug up were indeed from the Terror of 1937.

    BFD. Documents show 700,000 were executed in 1937-38, they had to be buried somewhere.





    Given the actions of the OUN(Organization of Ukrainian Nutcases) and their UNA-UNSO descendents today, 700,000 clearly wasn't enough.
    - Captain Marinesko, 7 years ago
  • Given the actions of the OUN(Organization of Ukrainian Nutcases) and their UNA-UNSO descendents today, 700,000 clearly wasn't enough.
    You have become a veritable cartoon Stalinist... :rolleyes:


    Petr
    - Petr, 7 years ago
  • You have become a veritable cartoon Stalinist... :rolleyes:


    Petr


    Really? Were you aware that UNA-UNSO types like to re-write the entire history of Ukraine, to the extent that they refer to Kievian Rus as "Ukraina Rus"? And they often deny that Muscovites are actually Slavs?
    - Captain Marinesko, 7 years ago
  • Given the actions of the OUN(Organization of Ukrainian Nutcases) and their UNA-UNSO descendents today, 700,000 clearly wasn't enough.

    Wouldn't have helped much with the 'Nachtigall' battalion responsible for so many massacres in Galicia in July 1941, since they were recruited from Ukrainians who'd lived in Poland before August 1939.

    :p
    - eggheadbanga, 7 years ago
  • Really? Were you aware that UNA-UNSO types like to re-write the entire history of Ukraine, to the extent that they refer to Kievian Rus as "Ukraina Rus"?

    That was first done by Hrushevsky, who was far from a UNA-UNSO type.


    And they often deny that Muscovites are actually Slavs?

    Ive heard the same from various Russians about Ukrainians, claiming they're "Slavicised Turks".
    - Boleslaw, 7 years ago
  • Wouldn't have helped much with the 'Nachtigall' battalion responsible for so many massacres in Galicia in July 1941, since they were recruited from Ukrainians who'd lived in Poland before August 1939.

    :p

    You do realise that Galicia was ruled by Poland before August 1939?
    - Boleslaw, 7 years ago
  • Wouldn't have helped much with the 'Nachtigall' battalion responsible for so many massacres in Galicia in July 1941, since they were recruited from Ukrainians who'd lived in Poland before August 1939.

    :p


    Well I was referring partially to the ones we need to kill next revolution. Of course most of those rats will run like they usually do.
    - Captain Marinesko, 7 years ago
  • You do realise that Galicia was ruled by Poland before August 1939?

    Uh yeah, I think that was what he was trying to say. However, many Ukrainian nationalists escaped into German occupied Poland.
    - Captain Marinesko, 7 years ago
  • Yeah they clearly ran from you during those demonstrations in Kiev. :rolleyes:
    - Boleslaw, 7 years ago
  • That was first done by Hrushevsky, who was far from a UNA-UNSO type.

    Which Hrushevsky. If that is who I'm thinking of he indeed have nationalist beliefs, though some of his own literature actually debunked a lot of claims surrounding the famine.



    Ive heard the same from various Russians about Ukrainians, claiming they're "Slavicised Turks".

    Who the HELL did you here that from?
    - Captain Marinesko, 7 years ago
  • However, many Ukrainian nationalists escaped into German occupied Poland.

    Ok, and??????
    - Boleslaw, 7 years ago
  • Yeah they clearly ran from you during those demonstrations in Kiev. :rolleyes:

    Great, another American decides that he's an expert on Ukraine. Could you please explain WTF you are talking about so that I can provide you with the proper debunking.
    - Captain Marinesko, 7 years ago
  • Ok, and??????

    And...are you able to carry on a coherent line of thought here? You tried to refute something Milhouse said and I pointed out that he's clearly aware of that.
    - Captain Marinesko, 7 years ago
  • Which Hrushevsky.
    Mykhailo Hrushevsky, the famous historian and president of the Ukrainian Peoples Republic.


    If that is who I'm thinking of he indeed have nationalist beliefs, though some of his own literature actually debunked a lot of claims surrounding the famine.

    Considering the fact he had to placate the Soviet authorities to keep himself out of trouble.



    Who the HELL did you here that from?

    http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1953
    - Boleslaw, 7 years ago
  • Considering the fact he had to placate the Soviet authorities to keep himself out of trouble.

    Yeah I'm sure that was it. Every time the evidence they want doesn't show up- allege a Soviet conspiracy.




    http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1953

    They were talking about Crimean TATARS, were they not? Most Russians, and most Ukrainians, consider themselves to be the same. Ukrainian is used interchangably in Russia.
    - Captain Marinesko, 7 years ago
  • Great, another American decides that he's an expert on Ukraine.

    Im a Ukrainian-American, so you cant just dismiss me an just "another American".


    Could you please explain WTF you are talking about so that I can provide you with the proper debunking.

    http://blog.kievukraine.info/2006/10/ukraine-ww2-nationalist-veterans-seek.html

    http://dfaw.livejournal.com/9165.html
    - Boleslaw, 7 years ago
  • Im a Ukrainian-American, so you cant just dismiss me an just "another American".

    Like that means anything. The Ukrainian emigre community was full of nationalist losers and revisionists for decades. You're just another phony who praises Ukrainian independence without understanding the meaning of Ukrainian or how much suffering that independence has caused. I'm a "Ukrainian" American who actually moved back to this region so I could do something about it.
    - Captain Marinesko, 7 years ago
  • They were talking about Crimean TATARS, were they not?
    In that particular case, but the same people have claimed that Ukrainians are "Slavicised Turks" several times before on this forum.

    Most Russians, and most Ukrainians, consider themselves to be the same.

    Most Ukrainians Ive met do not share that conviction. The level to which they adhere to that does varies.
    - Boleslaw, 7 years ago
  • In that particular case, but the same people have claimed that Ukrainians are "Slavicised Turks" several times before on this forum.

    Then those people are idiots, just like Croats that claim they're really Germans, Bosnians that claim the same, etc. It's the INTERNET!



    Most Ukrainians Ive met do not share that conviction. The level to which they adhere to that does varies.

    Gee, I wonder where THOSE Ukrainians live.
    - Captain Marinesko, 7 years ago
  • Desbois's team has mapped 500 unmarked graves so far.
    Its pretty amazing that he “found” exactly 500, not 489 or 523 or did he just stop and say, well I found 500 I won’t go and find 501 until I talk to this reporter.
    "We have a duty to ask, 'Where are the graves?'
    And I have a duty to ask, “Where are the graves and what proof is there that they are graves and what says who is in the graves and who put them there.
    - Grapple, 7 years ago
  • Its pretty amazing that he “found” exactly 500, not 489 or 523 or did he just stop and say, well I found 500 I won’t go and find 501 until I talk to this reporter.

    Why do you find that so suspicious. Did he SAY it was exactly 500 graves, or up to 500 graves or something else?


    And I have a duty to ask, “Where are the graves and what proof is there that they are graves and what says who is in the graves and who put them there.

    Isn't that the point of the investigation?
    - Captain Marinesko, 7 years ago
  • Like that means anything.
    It means alot.


    The Ukrainian emigre community was full of nationalist losers and revisionists for decades.
    Nice ad hominem charade you have. :rolleyes:


    You're just another phony who praises Ukrainian independence without understanding the meaning of Ukrainian or how much suffering that independence has caused.

    Funny you call me a phony when 1) you dont even know me 2) you dont even know half the beliefs I hold in concerns to Ukrainian nationhood and independence.

    Im well aware of many of the problems Ukraine, or even the entire former USSR has faced. I even saw many of these troubles first-hand during my visits to St. Petersburg. However it doesnt follow that a return to the Soviet system is the only viable way of improving the situation.

    I praise Ukrainian independence, but in following in the shadow of Taras Shevchenko and others, I also stress that national independence is meaningless without social justice. More work needs to be done.

    Although Lazar continously likes to protray me as an Orange Revolution supporter, I have always been highly critical of Yushchenko, particularly with his eagerness to have Ukraine join the EU.

    I support giving the Russian minority cultural and political autonomy as a reasonable comprimise in the dispute between Russia and Ukraine over this issue.

    And like Drahomanov, Im willing to admit that Russia and Ukraine are indeed related cultures but that doesnt mean they are of the same culture. Much like the relationship between Czechs and Slovaks. Ive never been much of a Russophobe, except for a brief phase I went through a year or so ago.


    I'm a "Ukrainian" American who actually moved back to this region so I could do something about it.

    Well good for you, hopefully sometime in the near future I will able to do something similar.
    - Boleslaw, 7 years ago
  • Gee, I wonder where THOSE Ukrainians live.

    They now live in America, but they're originally from Ukraine.
    - Boleslaw, 7 years ago
  • Its pretty amazing that he “found” exactly 500, not 489 or 523 or did he just stop and say, well I found 500 I won’t go and find 501 until I talk to this reporter.

    The figures were offered by the reporter. And nothing indicates they were offered as exact numbers.

    And I have a duty to ask, “Where are the graves and what proof is there that they are graves and what says who is in the graves and who put them there.

    LOL!

    Did you read the article?
    - Globus, 7 years ago
  • There is not enough blood difference to consider Muscovites and Ukrainians distinct- at least not enough to necessitate independence. Pining over romantic heroes of ages past is just ridiculous and backward. As for the only way to help these problems- socialism is the only way when the force that has created and preserves these problems is capitalism.

    Ukrainian independence has always been a disaster, primarily because it has usually been the wish of a small, but well-organized and determined minority.
    - Captain Marinesko, 7 years ago
  • The figures were offered by the reporter. And nothing indicates they were offered as exact numbers.
    If you have “found” 489 or 523 would you not say that? Isn’t this whole “project” suppose to find the truth and isn’t the truth the exact number of graves found.
    Did you read the article?
    Sure did, I don’t see any evidence or proof. Evidence and Proof would be a complete forensic examination with independent experts, not some stories that were clamed to be told by locals. There is a claim of murder, I have the same standards for all murder claims, evidence.

    I bet I can find some locals in the Ukraine to claim that aliens landed, this does not make evidence or proof that aliens did land.
    - Grapple, 7 years ago
  • If you have “found” 489 or 523 would you not say that?

    The person who did the finding was not the person who stated 500. And no, one needn't state the exact number when we're talking about hundreds.

    Isn’t this whole “project” suppose to find the truth and isn’t the truth the exact number of graves found.

    LOL! You're simply trying to find a reason to mindlessly deny what doesn't fit with your denial.

    Sure did, I don’t see any evidence or proof.

    Then you know the procedures he uses and you know it was an article about his efforts. It was not an article to convince deniers who refuse to be convinced. Frankly, the march of history doesn't depend on satisfying those who because of their ideology deny obvious facts.
    - Globus, 7 years ago
  • You do realise that Galicia was ruled by Poland before August 1939?

    Duhhh, yes. Nachtigall included some members who'd fled across the border in 1939-41.
    - eggheadbanga, 7 years ago
  • Sure did, I don’t see any evidence or proof. Evidence and Proof would be a complete forensic examination with independent experts, not some stories that were clamed to be told by locals.

    Oh, goody, I love it when they offer hostages to fortune. Then presumably you deny that anyone was ever killed by Mao, Stalin and other similar-scale mass murderers. Or that any ethnic German perished at the hands of the Poles and Czechoslovaks after 1945. Et cetera. Because I don't recall ever reading that these were subjected to 'independent investigation'. Funnily enough no one seems to have a problem accepting that Mao, Stalin etc were murderous bastards.

    Well, maybe a few Stalinists, but they're more into the let's-ignore-it-happened routine of denial than the hysterical 6-year-old routine offered by Holocaust negationists.

    There is a claim of murder, I have the same standards for all murder claims, evidence.

    It's actually normal to use local police to investigate murder allegations. In this instance, we have non-Jewish Frenchmen involved investigating extremely cold cases with the assistance of locals. Looks pretty darn independent to me.

    I bet I can find some locals in the Ukraine to claim that aliens landed, this does not make evidence or proof that aliens did land.

    Try reading the article again, and pay attention this time. There is more than just eyewitness testimony at work here.
    - eggheadbanga, 7 years ago
  • The person who did the finding was not the person who stated 500. And no, one needn't state the exact number when we're talking about hundreds.
    I thought that the whole purpose of this “investigation’ was to find the graves. After all they do claim to have “mapped” them which in my mind means they marked it on a map. If its marked on a map is it too hard to say exactly how many? If I “found” 523 mass graves that is what I would say, not round it up or down to 500. After all isn’t every one of these “mass graves” a tragedy. But instead you are saying that either the reporter or the ‘investigtors” said “well it was around 500”
    You're simply trying to find a reason to mindlessly deny what doesn't fit with your denial.
    No, I am just saying that if the whole purpose is to find where and how many mass graves there are then tell me how many and where they are.
    It was not an article to convince deniers who refuse to be convinced. Frankly, the march of history doesn't depend on satisfying those who because of their ideology deny obvious facts.
    All I asked for was the “facts”. How many “mass graves” did they find, they are suppose to have “mapped” them so this should be a easy answer. This seems to upset you for some reason.
    - Grapple, 7 years ago
  • I thought that the whole purpose of this “investigation’ was to find the graves.

    Nothing to do with the purpose of the article. Read more carefully.

    After all they do claim to have “mapped” them which in my mind means they marked it on a map.

    Locating them is obviously the first step.

    http://operation613.townhall.com/g/4d70464f-687d-468b-9c54-c5e8b5621e2f

    Mass Grave of Massacred Jews Found in Ukraine
    Friday, September 15, 2006 7:53 PM


    Mass Grave of Massacred Jews Found in Ukraine
    13:17 Sep 15, '06 / 22 Elul 5766
    by Hillel Fendel
    IsraelNationalNews.com


    The remains of some 1,800 Jews murdered by Nazis in Ukraine were discovered two weeks ago in a pit that became their mass grave. The search for additional mass murder sites there continues.


    A secret mission to find 60-year-old mass Jewish graves in eastern Europe has now become public, following its first "success." The operation is being funded by the Simon Weil Holocaust Research Fund in France, the Holocaust Museums in Paris and Washington, and the Zaka Organization. It was initiated by the Catholic liaison to the Jewish community in France, historian Patrick Dubois.

    The participants made contact with Christian leaders in Ukraine, asking for help in locating the sites at which thousands of Jews were butchered and/or buried. Testimony was collected on Sundays over the course of four months, leading to the formation of a list of 500 possible mass-murder sites.

    Based on the collected information, the first area to be physically checked was near the city of Lvov - now in western Ukraine but then, during World War II, a part of southeastern Poland. Its Jewish population on the eve of the war was 110,000, not including another 100,000 Jews in Lvov taking refuge from other areas of German-occupied Poland.

    Ukranian nationalists, encouraged by the Germans, massacred about 4,000 Lvov Jews in early July 1941, and killed another 2,000 the next month - including groups of Jews they took to the Jewish cemetery and Lunecki prison, where they shot them. All the while, the Germans were murdering and deporting other Jews. By August 1942, more than 65,000 Jews had been deported from the Lvov ghetto and murdered, and in June 1943, the Germans destroyed the ghetto, killing and deporting the remaining thousands of Jews in the process.

    Yehuda Meshi-Zahav - founder of the Zaka organization for emergency rescue, identification and recovery - and his son Shimon were on hand near a forest outside Lvov's Jewish cemetery two weeks ago when the mass grave was discovered. Having received detailed Halakhic [Jewish legal] advice on how to handle and relate to the bodies, they thought they were prepared - but actually seeing the piles of bones appear under their shovels proved to be a great shock.

    Using metal detectors, they began digging in a particular area, and about two meters deep, the bones began to appear - with bullets still lodged inside them. On the bullets could be read the place and time of manufacture: Germany 1939, Germany 1941. Hundreds of skulls and bones were found.

    Shimon, who was in Ukraine for three weeks, later said, "The scene unfolding in front of our eyes was shocking. An area of some 500 square meters filled with hundreds of skeletons, one on top of the other, in piles some two meters high. The most horrifying was to see two adult skeletons on top of children - parents apparently trying to protect their children. We know that the Nazis killed the Jewish families all together, as opposed to the way they killed the Gypsies." This in fact was one of the additional signs that the bodies were of Jews. Some of the skeletons were found standing, apparently indicating they were buried alive.

    It is estimated that 1,800 Jews were killed and buried at that particular site. Attempts will also be made to find out the names of at least some of the victims.

    The digging and subsequent covering of the site with a new layer of dirt was deemed by the rabbis who were present to be a kosher burial in accordance with Jewish Law. A half-meter layer of concrete was then placed atop the entire area, and prayers were recited.

    Members of the delegation plan to return next week in order to place a memorial monument atop the site, which Ukrainian authorities have agreed to recognize as a Jewish burial site.

    The name of the operation is "Kaddish for Ukranian Jewry," referring to the memorial prayer said in honor of those who have died. After the upcoming holidays, work will be renewed on locating additional mass graves of Jews massacred in Ukraine.

    In two weeks' time, the World Holocaust Forum and the Yad VaShem Holocaust Memorial will mark one of the most horrific documented Nazi atrocities - the brutal murder of 33,771 Jews at the Babi Yar ravine near Kiev in 1941 - with an internationally attended memorial ceremony at the site. Details to come.
    - Globus, 7 years ago
  • Oh, goody, I love it when they offer hostages to fortune. Then presumably you deny that anyone was ever killed by Mao, Stalin and other similar-scale mass murderers. Or that any ethnic German perished at the hands of the Poles and Czechoslovaks after 1945. Et cetera. Because I don't recall ever reading that these were subjected to 'independent investigation'. Funnily enough no one seems to have a problem accepting that Mao, Stalin etc were murderous bastards.
    So because you believe that Mao or Stalin were ‘murderous bastards” then anyone who is accused of being murderous bastards are guilty?
    Try reading the article again, and pay attention this time. There is more than just eyewitness testimony at work here.
    I did read the article, below is the quote of his methods. The only evidence from the “mass graves” is ‘shell casings” where are the bodies, if you can find the shell casings then why is there no discription of the bodies, and evidence of who they were and who killed them if they are even there.
    Desbois runs a lean team. A student in Germany combs police archives, which are cross-referenced against Soviet archives in Washington D.C., for period recollections. Then Desbois searches for three, unconnected eyewitnesses. He approaches them as a priest, in his collar, in his gentle manner. He reconstructs the massacres through their accounts - where the Jews walked, where the killers stood. Ballistic experts analyze shell casings found on the graves. Each witness is interviewed, photographed, and filmed.
    - Grapple, 7 years ago
  • The remains of some 1,800 Jews murdered by Nazis in Ukraine were discovered two weeks ago in a pit that became their mass grave….

    It is estimated that 1,800 Jews were killed and buried at that particular site. Attempts will also be made to find out the names of at least some of the victims.
    So which is it 1,800 or an estimated 1,800. Did they not count the bodies?
    The most horrifying was to see two adult skeletons on top of children - parents apparently trying to protect their children. We know that the Nazis killed the Jewish families all together, as opposed to the way they killed the Gypsies." This in fact was one of the additional signs that the bodies were of Jews.
    So this is proof that they were Jews, that they killed Jewish families together?

    Also where is the complete forensic report on this mass murder site? After all this is the suppose to be a investigation.
    - Grapple, 7 years ago
  • So because you believe that Mao or Stalin were ‘murderous bastards” then anyone who is accused of being murderous bastards are guilty?

    Nope. I can think of several other kinds of evidence that constitutes proof of such crimes.

    More to the point: do you believe Stalin and Mao presided over the deaths of millions? If so, why? Are you an equal opportunity denier?

    I did read the article, below is the quote of his methods. The only evidence from the “mass graves” is ‘shell casings” where are the bodies, if you can find the shell casings then why is there no discription of the bodies, and evidence of who they were and who killed them if they are even there.

    Why is there no description of the bodies? Because this was a newspaper article, not a forensics report. The article just posted clearly described the condition of the bodies, and it relates to the same program of excavations and identifications.

    Evidence of who they were: that's where witnesses come in. As well as other kinds of sources.

    Who killed them: that's where other sources come in as well as witnesses.

    Let's see if you can guess what other sources and other evidence I've been referring to, other than witnesses or forensics.
    - eggheadbanga, 7 years ago
  • So which is it 1,800 or an estimated 1,800. Did they not count the bodies?

    Pathetic!!

    So this is proof that they were Jews, that they killed Jewish families together?

    They knew they were Jews before they opened the graves!

    Also where is the complete forensic report on this mass murder site?

    You mean bodies with bullets is not forensic?

    You seem to get more desperate every post.

    You need to understand that the rest of the world doesn't operate with their heads in the sand.
    - Globus, 7 years ago
  • So which is it 1,800 or an estimated 1,800. Did they not count the bodies?

    why don't you ask the organisation responsible for carrying out the grave-locations? This is a piece of journalism that's being cited. Stop making unreasonable demands on what this source can tell you.

    So this is proof that they were Jews, that they killed Jewish families together?

    Umm, no, there's actually other proof of this as well.

    Also where is the complete forensic report on this mass murder site? After all this is the suppose to be a investigation.

    When I read a report of a murder in America, I don't start bleating that I can't access the forensics report from my vantage point in Europe, and that therefore the murder can't have happened.
    - eggheadbanga, 7 years ago
  • Nope. I can think of several other kinds of evidence that constitutes proof of such crimes.
    That is all that I asked for, evidence and proof.
    More to the point: do you believe Stalin and Mao presided over the deaths of millions? If so, why? Are you an equal opportunity denier?
    I have not denied anything, I just ask for evidence and proof.
    Why is there no description of the bodies? Because this was a newspaper article, not a forensics report. \
    Well if you are talking about mass graves then I just thought that you should mention bodies. As to the forensic report where is it and was it independently verified?
    - Grapple, 7 years ago
  • When I read a report of a murder in America, I don't start bleating that I can't access the forensics report from my vantage point in Europe, and that therefore the murder can't have happened.
    But nobody is claiming that there was a ‘holocaust” in the US that is so special that cities all over Europe have to put up US holocaust museums and have special holocaust lessons in European classrooms nor support a country where “holocaust victims” live and where they can have their own country with their own special rules of immigration and citizenship while claiming that other countries can’t do this.

    When you effect me, then I want proof.
    - Grapple, 7 years ago
  • Angry A.

    So what are you saying , or not saying or not accepting or trying to dismiss , or trying to ignore or trying to explain away or turning a blind eye to , as the case may be ?

    It always surprises me when you place the bodies on the table someone always manages to say it never happened or someone else did it - never Heydrichs boys , they gave sweets to Jews and showed elderly Russian ladies across the roads - anything else is either made up , forged or the NKVD did it as they were mostly jews.
    I'm not saying the Germans acted the way the French do towards N. African rioters now-a-days. They did what needed to be done in a total war situation. This was the greatest struggle [the war in the East] in all of recorded history, things did get ugly.

    All I am trying to say, is I don't take anything put out by Western mainstream media at face value, especially propoganda pieces by Judeo-Christian publications.


    Angry A. - you do admit that J.D. was set free by an Israeli court , and Jewish Judge - no "Holohoax" endorsing , no lies etc.
    And the papers which freeded hi came from Russia , am I to believe that thse papers alone are the only ones not to have been tampered with - revisionists seem to have some phobia about evidence from Russia which says the Holocaust took place.
    Odd ???

    I wouldn't say I'm a revisionist, I just a person with an interest in that period. I'm also a realist, I know the Jewish media is not to be trusted.

    When I was in school, 1962-1974, one of my teachers told us "the Germans invented Zyklon B during the war, for the sole purpose of increased efficiency in killing Jews"

    This is absolute nonsense, Zyklon B was invented years earlier, for delousing, I saw this on a PBS show, which is a Jew source.

    I use to actually believe a great % of the stories about what happened to the Jews during the war. Their [Jews] lies & exaggerations, plus the advent of the internet, changed my beliefs dramatically.

    Also, the way the Jews milk this Holocaust cash cow, non stop, & use it to smooth over whatever the latest atrocity is they have done against Arabs, does not help their credibility either.
    - Commander, 7 years ago
  • That is all that I asked for, evidence and proof.

    I have not denied anything, I just ask for evidence and proof.

    Evidence in such cases would consist of the following
    1. wartime documents
    2. witness statements taken historically (e.g. in 1945 Ukraine or 1960s West Germany) during previous investigations
    3. forensics reports taken in 1945 Ukraine, i.e. to a different standard to today's expectations.
    4. contemporary witness statements from the Ukrainian villagers as described in the article
    5. forensics - ballistics reports on the bullets, done in the present day
    6. forensics - examination of the grave-sites.

    Previously there was already (1), (2) and (3) which was quite sufficient for the world to accept that hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian Jews were murdered by the Nazis in 1941-43. The addition of (4), (5) and (6) simply means that idiot deniers can bleat until they are blue in the face for all I care.

    Well if you are talking about mass graves then I just thought that you should mention bodies.

    The original article was published in the Christian Science Monitor. Do you think they wanted to make people ill over the breakfast table? The other article mentioned bodies in more detail.

    As to the forensic report where is it and was it independently verified?

    For such details, as you have been told before, you would have to approach the organisation doing the grave-searches.

    I personally intend to find out if they will publish their results, or where the results will be archived. I doubt there will be an instant response, so for the purposes of this discussion it is quite pointless to keep on jumping up and down like a small child demanding to see 'proof' instantly and threatening to throw your rattle out of the pram.

    I don't expect that the results will be posted for all to see on the internet overnight, any more than I would expect to be able to Google an autopsy report from last week's murders in Washington DC.
    - eggheadbanga, 7 years ago
  • But nobody is claiming that there was a ‘holocaust” in the US that is so special that cities all over Europe have to put up US holocaust museums

    paid for by private money in most cases.

    Anyway, Europe imports vast amounts of cop shows, including state-owned TV stations paying for them with public money, and publishes large amounts of US crime fiction. How do I know that this isn't all part of some bizarre American Murder Hoax, this homicide-religion that dominates every aspect of US television? Do thousands of people really get killed every day in America? How do I know this for sure? The simple fact is I don't, not using your absurd standards.

    and have special holocaust lessons in European classrooms

    :nopity:

    nor support a country where “holocaust victims” live

    Since the US didn't send a penny of aid to Israel until 1973, your point here is completely irrelevant.

    and where they can have their own country with their own special rules of immigration and citizenship

    Most countries have special rules of immigration and citizenship. Jews are also effectively and in some cases explicitly barred from a big swathe of the world where they used to live, i.e. the Middle East.

    while claiming that other countries can’t do this.

    Jews don't dictate European or US immmigration policy.

    When you effect me, then I want proof.

    How are you affected? Aid to Israel is a minuscule fraction of the US defense budget, and your government decided that was a good investment 30 years ago for strategic reasons, not because it felt guilty over the Holocaust. You can more easily complain that your pay packet is going to prop up a vile baby-aborting, repressive dictatorship in China. Which unless you are a hermit and don't ever buy anything at all, it is.
    - eggheadbanga, 7 years ago
  • Since the US didn't send a penny of aid to Israel until 1973, your point here is completely irrelevant.

    Not even in 1967?


    Jews don't dictate European or US immmigration policy.

    Can you say that with a straight face?:rolleyes:
    - Commander, 7 years ago
  • Can you say that with a straight face?:rolleyes:


    Yeah he can because the fact that some organized Jewish groups supported that immigration reform doesn't make them the reason why it passed. There were massive economic benefits for the ruling class that were far more relevant to immigration reform than any idealistic Jews.
    - Captain Marinesko, 7 years ago
  • Yeah he can because the fact that some organized Jewish groups supported that immigration reform doesn't make them the reason why it passed. There were massive economic benefits for the ruling class that were far more relevant to immigration reform than any idealistic Jews.

    How are the black Africans in France, doing these days? Are they making the ruling class lots of money? The French Interior Minister *Nicolas Sarkozy, how is this appeaser of rioters, how is his job going these days?

    *Jew
    - Commander, 7 years ago
  • Not even in 1967?

    US military aid didn't start until 1973. Anything resupplied in 1967 was bought.

    Can you say that with a straight face?:rolleyes:

    Don't believe everything you read in Kevin Macdonald, or pick up third-hand from the internet.

    :p
    - eggheadbanga, 7 years ago
  • Angry A.When I was in school, 1962-1974, one of my teachers told us "the Germans invented Zyklon B during the war, for the sole purpose of increased efficiency in killing Jews"
    I think most of us can find things which teacher tried to bluff on because they didn't know the answer - says more about the teacher than the subject.

    Hitler set the standard for the war in his "pre Barbarossa "addresses to senior commanders.
    Waht the germans did , did not need to be done - their rascst agenda actually cost them a huge amount of good will and potential support.
    - cerberus, 7 years ago
  • How are the black Africans in France, doing these days? Are they making the ruling class lots of money? The French Interior Minister *Nicolas Sarkozy, how is this appeaser of rioters, how is his job going these days?

    *Jew

    This may suprise you but droves of third world immigrants have been coming into France for several decades BEFORE Sarkozy ever became minister. As usual you find a Jew and put the entire responsibility on that one guy despite the fact that the problem has been happening for years and he may or may not even have the authority to do anything about it.

    Could you, without looking it up, even NAME the previous Interior Minister of France?
    - Captain Marinesko, 7 years ago
  • No.

    You can accuse me of whatever, I'm thick skinned, I don't care.

    But, if you were to take a poll;

    "Do you think Jews have played a BIG part in bringing, all of the 3rd world invaders into Europe & the U.K?"

    YES

    NO

    Do you think there would be more YES or NO votes? I would say YES will win ! :welcome:
    - Commander, 7 years ago
  • Argument ad populum.
    - Captain Marinesko, 7 years ago
  • This is an interesting story, and one which raises a number of questions.

    The first one being, where can we inspect a map showing the locations of Pere Desbois' 500 unmarked graves, or 2200, as the case may be?

    A supplementary question would be how many of these have actually been opened and shown to contain the remains of Jews?

    Several others come quickly to mind, but in the meantime can anyone assist with these two?

    Thanks in advance.
    - Dan Dare, 7 years ago
  • This is an interesting story, and one which raises a number of questions.

    The first one being, where can we inspect a map showing the locations of Pere Desbois' 500 unmarked graves, or 2200, as the case may be?

    I don't believe Desbois has published a list or map.

    But the Jewish Preservation Committee of Ukraine has.

    http://www.heritageabroad.gov/reports/doc/survey_ukraine_2005.pdf

    Appendix IV: Mass Grave Sites
    Information in this table has been derived from survey forms completed between 1995 and 2000
    by the Jewish Preservation Committee of Ukraine. This is the most complete list of Jewish mass
    burial sites in Ukraine ever compiled; however, we know that there may be other unidentified
    mass graves in the country. More information on each site can be requested from the U.S.
    Commission for the Preservation of America’s Heritage Abroad at
    uscommission@heritageabroad.gov.
    Commission Survey
    Number Oblast (Region) Town Date of Survey
    UA23190501 Cherkaska Buky 01.10.98
    UA23190502 Cherkaska Buky 01.10.98
    UA23190503 Cherkaska Buky 01.10.98
    UA23190504 Cherkaska Buky 01.10.98
    UA23190505 Cherkaska Buky 01.10.98
    UA23180501 Cherkaska Konela 01.10.98
    UA23180502 Cherkaska Konela 01.10.98
    UA23090501 Cherkaska Mliiv 05.02.98
    UA23170501 Cherkaska Sokolivka 01.10.98
    UA23150501 Cherkaska Sorokotiaha 01.10.98
    UA23130501 Cherkaska Talne 05.02.98
    UA23160501 Cherkaska Vorone 01.10.98
    UA23140501 Cherkaska Zhashkiv 01.10.98
    UA23120501 Cherkaska Zvenyhorodka 05.02.98
    UA23080501 Cherkaska Bilozirja 06.03.96
    UA23220501 Cherkaska Khrystynivka 10.06.99
    UA23230501 Cherkaska Ivanhorod 01.06.99
    UA23300501 Cherkaska Kaniv 07.06.99
    UA23290501 Cherkaska Lysianka 15.07.99
    UA23290502 Cherkaska Lysianka 15.07.99
    UA23250501 Cherkaska Monastyryshche 12.06.99
    UA23250502 Cherkaska Monastyryshche 12.06.99
    UA23240501 Cherkaska Talalaivka 02.06.99
    UA23280501 Cherkaska Terlytsia 17.06.99
    UA23030501 Cherkaska Uman 17.09.95
    UA23060501 Cherkaska V. Zelena Dibrova 13.09.95
    UA23070501 Cherkaska Zolotonosha 17.09.95
    UA24110501 Chernihivska Berezna 02.04.96
    UA24010501 Chernihivska Chernihiv 01.04.96
    UA24010502 Chernihivska Chernihiv 01.04.96
    UA24220501 Chernihivska Horodnia 13.03.96
    UA24220502 Chernihivska Horodnia 25.03.96
    UA24140501 Chernihivska Korop 16.04.96
    UA24130501 Chernihivska Kozelets 16.04.96
    UA24060501 Chernihivska Mena 01.04.96
    UA24070501 Chernihivska Nizhyn 02.04.96
    UA24100501 Chernihivska Oster 02.04.96
    UA24180501 Chernihivska Pryluky 12.03.96
    UA24210501 Chernihivska Semenivka 12.03.96
    134
    Commission Survey
    Number Oblast (Region) Town Date
    of Survey
    UA24240501 Chernihivska Shchors 29.03.96
    UA24170501 Chernihivska Sosnytsia 16.04.96
    UA24230501 Chernihivska Borzna (V. Shapovalivka) 25.03.96
    UA25190501 Chernivetska Babyn 02.11.95
    UA25010501 Chernivetska Chernivtsi 02.10.95
    UA25120501 Chernivetska Chudyn 22.10.95
    UA05620501 Chernivetska Hlybochytsia 21.11.96
    UA25180501 Chernivetska Konstyntsi 02.11.95
    UA25090501 Chernivetska Novoselivka 18.10.95
    UA25090502 Chernivetska Novoselivka 20.10.95
    UA25200501 Chernivetska Shyshkivtsi 16.05.96
    UA03040501 Dnipropetrovska Apostolovo 05.06.95
    UA03010501 Dnipropetrovska Dnipropetrovsk 20.05.99
    UA03020501 Dnipropetrovska Kryvyj Rih 02.09.95
    UA03030501 Dnipropetrovska Nikopol 04.03.96
    UA08300101 Ivano-Frankivska Horodenka 2000
    UA08220501 Ivano-Frankivska Kolomyja 19.11.96
    UA08020501 Ivano-Frankivska Kosiv 28.06.95
    UA08230501 Ivano-Frankivska Nadvirna 19.11.96
    UA08200501 Ivano-Frankivska Rohatyn 18.11.96
    UA08310101 Ivano-Frankivska Semakovtsy 2000
    UA08240501 Ivano-Frankivska Zabolotiv 19.11.96
    UA20040501 Kharkivska Bohodukhiv 09.12.98
    UA20070501 Kharkivska Chuhuiv 25.12.98
    UA20010501 Kharkivska Kharkiv 28.10.98
    UA20010502 Kharkivska Kharkiv 02.11.98
    UA20010503 Kharkivska Kharkiv 31.10.98
    UA20010504 Kharkivska Kharkiv 31.10.98
    UA20030501 Kharkivska Krasnohrad 06.11.98
    UA20020501 Kharkivska Lozova 05.12.98
    UA20050501 Kharkivska Sakhnovshchyna 20.03.99
    UA21030501 Khersonska Beryslav 06.03.96
    UA21080501 Khersonska Borovyj Kut 12.09.95
    UA21020501 Khersonska Kakhovka 10.09.95
    UA21020502 Khersonska Kakhovka 10.09.95
    UA21060501 Khersonska Kujbyshevo 11.09.95
    UA21040501 Khersonska Novo-Vorontsovka 06.03.96
    UA21120501 Khersonska V. Brushintsi 13.09.95
    UA21110501 Khersonska V. Kalininske 12.09.95
    UA21090501 Khersonska V. Mala Semenukha 12.09.95
    UA21070501 Khersonska Vysokopillia 11.09.95
    UA22090501 Khmelnitska Chemerivtsi 31.08.95
    UA22220501 Khmelnytska Derazhnia 05.09.95
    UA22200501 Khmelnytska Hrytsiv 04.09.95
    UA22390501 Khmelnytska Huta Polonetska 06.03.96
    UA22020501 Khmelnytska Kamjanets Podilskyj 16.08.95
    UA22020502 Khmelnytska Kamjanets Podilskyj 17.08.95
    UA22170501 Khmelnytska Letychiv 06.09.95
    UA22360501 Khmelnytska Medzhybizh 08.09.95
    135
    Commission Survey
    Number Oblast (Region) Town Date
    of Survey
    UA22190501 Khmelnytska Slavuta 04.09.95
    UA22190502 Khmelnytska Slavuta 04.09.95
    UA22070501 Khmelnytska Sudylkiv 30.08.95
    UA22290501 Khmelnytska V. Annopil 05.09.95
    UA22290502 Khmelnytska V. Annopil 05.09.95
    UA22290503 Khmelnyska v. Annopil 06.09.95
    UA22160501 Khmelnyska V. Chankiv 01.09.95
    UA22100501 Khmelnytska V. Demshyn 31.08.95
    UA22150501 Khmelnytska V. Demjanivtsi 31.08.95
    UA22300501 Khmelnytska V. Kilikiiv 06.09.95
    UA22210501 Khmelnytska V. Korchyk 04.09.95
    UA22230501 Khmelnytska V. Kutky 05.09.95
    UA22270501 Khmelnytska V. Manivtsi 05.09.95
    UA22280501 Khmelnytska V. Rosolivtsi 05.09.95
    UA22110501 Khmelnytska V. Stara Ushytsia 31.08.95
    UA22380501 Khmelnytska V. Staryj Kryvyn 06.03.96
    UA22240501 Khmelnytska V. Yarmolyntsi 06.09.95
    UA22370501 Khmelnytska V. Zhovtneve 06.03.96
    UA22140501 Khmelnytska Velykyj Zhvanchyk 31.08.95
    UA22180501 Khmelnytska Zinkiv 01.09.95
    UA22080501 Khmelnytska Shepetivka 30.08.95
    UA10110501 Kirovohradska Bereslavka 06.04.97
    UA10100501 Kirovohradska Bobrynets 06.04.97
    UA10130501 Kirovohradska Dobrovelychkivka 07.08.97
    UA10120501 Kirovohradska Dykivka 06.04.97
    UA10140501 Kirovohradska Hlyniane 07.08.97
    UA10010501 Kirovohradska Kirovohrad 07.08.97
    UA10150501 Kirovohradska Lypniazhka 06.08.97
    UA10220501 Kirovohradska Novo-Petrivka 08.08.97
    UA10020501 Kirovohradska Novoukrainka 07.08.97
    UA10040501 Kirovohradska Oleksandrivka 01.04.97
    UA10180501 Kirovohradska Stara Ulianivka 17.04.97
    UA10090501 Kirovohradska Svitlovodsk 04.04.97
    UA10230501 Kirovohradska Ternova Balka 08.08.97
    UA10210501 Kirovohradska Ustynivka 08.08.97
    UA10170501 Kirovohradska V. Losypivka 16.04.97
    UA10160501 Kirovohradska V. Markovo 16.04.97
    UA10190501 Kirovohradska Znamianka 07.08.97
    UA09230501 Kyivska Baryshivka 21.03.97
    UA09200501 Kyivska Bohuslav 14.03.97
    UA09200502 Kyivska Bohuslav 18.03.97
    UA09330501 Kyivska Hrebinky 06.03.97
    UA09010501 Kyivska Kyiv 27.01.98
    UA09310501 Kyivska Kovshevata 03.03.97
    UA09320501 Kyivska Medvyn 05.03.97
    UA09320502 Kyivska Medvyn 06.03.97
    UA09210501 Kyivska Perejaslav-Khmelnytskyj 20.03.97
    UA09280501 Kyivska Pjatyhory 25.03.97
    UA09280502 Kyivska Pjatyhory 26.03.97
    136
    Commission Survey
    Number Oblast (Region) Town Date
    of Survey
    UA09290501 Kyivska Stavyshche 26.03.97
    UA09290502 Kyivska Stavyshche 27.03.97
    UA09300501 Kyivska Tarashcha 28.03.97
    UA09300502 Kyivska Tarashcha 31.03.97
    UA09070501 Kyivska Vasylkiv 04.08.97
    UA09170501 Kyivska Yahotyn 05.08.97
    UA13270501 Lvivska Dobromyl 13.08.97
    UA13240103 Lvivska Drohobych 2005
    UA13340501 Lvivska Holobutiv 10.11.98
    UA13300501 Lvivska Horodok 15.08.97
    UA13590501 Lvivska Kamjanka-Buzka 05.10.98
    UA13040501 Lvivska Komarno 11.08.97
    UA13330501 Lvivska Kurovichi 10.11.98
    UA13010501 Lvivska Lviv 13.08.97
    UA13010502 Lvivska Lviv 13.08.97
    UA13410501 Lvivska Sasiv 30.10.98
    UA13030501 Lvivska Skhidnitsa 10.08.97
    UA13490501 Lvivska Skole 09.11.98
    UA13520501 Lvivska Yavoriv 10.11.98
    UA13230501 Lvivska Zhovkva 14.08.97
    UA13230502 Lvivska Zhovkva 14.08.97
    UA13130501 Lvivska Zhydachiv 19.08.97
    UA13420501 Lvivska Zolochiv 30.10.98
    UA14180501 Mykolaivska Mariivka 02.12.96
    UA14140501 Mykolaivska Mykolaivka 28.11.96
    UA14130501 Mykolaivska Novo-Uman 02.12.96
    UA14130502 Mykolaivska Novo-Uman 27.11.96
    UA14270501 Mykolaivska Novo-Mykolaivka 02.12.96
    UA14280501 Mykolaivska Novo-Pavlivka 02.12.96
    UA14240501 Mykolaivska Porichchia 05.12.96
    UA14090501 Mykolaivska Slava 26.11.96
    UA14120501 Mykolaivska Sukha Balka 26.11.96
    UA14150501 Mykolaivska Vesele 28.11.96
    UA14050501 Mykolaivska Voznesensk 28.06.95
    UA14070501 Mykolaivska Yastrybunove 26.11.96
    UA14080501 Mykolaivska Zelenyj Yar 26.11.96
    UA14080502 Mykolaivska Zelenyj Yar 28.11.96
    UA14100501 Mykolaivska Zhovtneve 26.11.96
    UA14100502 Mykolaivska Zhovtneve 26.11.96
    UA15170501 Odeska Ananjev 29.06.95
    UA15170501 Odeska Ananjev 30.06.95
    UA15220501 Odeska Berezivka 11.07.95
    UA15030501 Odeska Bilhorod-Dnistrovskyj 29.06.95
    UA15160501 Odeska Dolynske 29.06.95
    UA15300501 Odeska Ivanivka 10.08.95
    UA15300503 Odeska Ivanivka 12.07.95
    UA15070501 Odeska Kodyma 29.06.95
    UA15070502 Odeska Kodyma 29.06.95
    UA15150501 Odeska Kotovsk 29.06.95
    137
    Commission Survey
    Number Oblast (Region) Town Date
    of Survey
    UA15110501 Odeska Kozatske 29.06.95
    UA15340501 Odeska Mykolaivka-Novorosijska 13.07.95
    UA15010501 Odeska Odesa 03.12.96
    UA15010502 Odeska Odesa 28.06.95
    UA15010503 Odeska Odesa 28.06.95
    UA15010504 Odeska Odesa 28.06.95
    UA15010505 Odeska Odesa 28.06.95
    UA15230501 Odeska Perelety 11.07.95
    UA15200501 Odeska Savran 09.07.95
    UA15330501 Odeska Tarutino 13.07.95
    UA15260501 Odeska V. Anno-Pokrovka 11.07.95
    UA15270501 Odeska V. Balalajchuk 12.07.95
    UA15250501 Odeska V. Borshchi 11.07.95
    UA15240501 Odeska V. Honorata 11.07.95
    UA15300502 Odeska V. Ivanivka 12.07.95
    UA15090501 Odeska V. Krutne 29.06.95
    UA15320501 Odeska V. Pavlinka 13.07.95
    UA15290501 Odeska V. Sofiivka 12.07.95
    UA15280501 Odeska V. Vynohradne 12.07.95
    UA15180501 Odeska V. Yasinovo 09.07.95
    UA15140501 Odeska V. Zahnitkiv 29.06.95
    UA15310501 Odeska Velykyj Dalnyk 12.07.95
    UA16100501 Poltavska Hadiach 14.11.95
    UA16090501 Poltavska Hradisk 25.07.95
    UA16140501 Poltavska Khorol 01.08.95
    UA16110501 Poltavska Kobyliaky 31.07.95
    UA16150501 Poltavska Kremenchuk 31.07.95
    UA16030501 Poltavska Lubny 14.07.95
    UA16120501 Poltavska Myrhorod 31.07.95
    UA16060501 Poltavska Pyriatyn 05.02.96
    UA16080501 Poltavska Semenivka 18.07.95
    UA16070501 Poltavska V. Berezova Rudka 15.02.96
    UA16070501 Poltavska V. Berezova Rudka 14.07.95
    UA16130501 Poltavska Zinkiv 05.03.96
    UA17270501 Rivnenska Berezno 04.12.96
    UA17160501 Rivnenska Boremel 08.08.95
    UA17150501 Rivnenska Demydivka 08.08.95
    UA17030501 Rivnenska Dubno 06.03.96
    UA17030502 Rivnenska Dubno 06.03.96
    UA17030503 Rivnenska Dubno 06.03.96
    UA17030504 Rivnenska Dubno 06.03.96
    UA17230501 Rivnenska Dubrovytsia 04.12.96
    UA17280501 Rivnenska Suhovolia (Hamlet) 04.12.96
    UA17290501 Rivnenska Kalynivka 04.12.96
    UA17120501 Rivnenska Klevan 01.12.94
    UA17120502 Rivnenska Klevan 01.12.94
    UA17120503 Rivnenska Klevan 01.12.94
    UA17120504 Rivnenska Klevan 01.12.94
    UA17080501 Rivnenska Korets 08.08.95
    138
    Commission Survey
    Number Oblast (Region) Town Date
    of Survey
    UA17040501 Rivnenska Kostopil 28.11.94
    UA17040502 Rivnenska Kostopil 28.11.94
    UA17040503 Rivnenska Kostopil 29.11.94
    UA17090501 Rivnenska Mizych 20.12.94
    UA17170501 Rivnenska Oleksandrija 23.05.96
    UA17130501 Rivnenska Ostroh 08.08.95
    UA17010501 Rivnenska Rivne 08.08.95
    UA17240501 Rivnenska Sarny 04.12.96
    UA17240502 Rivnenska Sarny 04.12.96
    UA17330501 Rivnenska Sosnove 04.12.96
    UA17330502 Rivnenska Sosnove 04.12.96
    UA17200501 Rivnenska Torhovytsia 09.08.95
    UA17350501 Rivnenska Tuchyn 03.12.96
    UA17070501 Rivnenska Velyki Mezhyrichi 05.12.96
    UA17250501 Rivnenska Volodymyrets 04.12.96
    UA17210501 Rivnenska Vysotsk 04.12.96
    UA17100501 Rivnenska Zdolbuniv 02.08.95
    UA18110501 Sumska Buryn 02.02.98
    UA18110502 Sumska Buryn 03.02.98
    UA18080501 Sumska Chervone 02.02.98
    UA18160501 Sumska Druzhba 20.08.97
    UA18060501 Sumska Herasymivka 08.09.97
    UA18050501 Sumska Hlynsk 02.02.98
    UA18070501 Sumska Hlukhiv 08.09.97
    UA18020501 Sumska Konotop 09.08.95
    UA18030501 Sumska Krolevets 10.08.95
    UA18150501 Sumska Okhtyrka 03.02.98
    UA18150502 Sumska Okhtyrka 03.02.98
    UA18090502 Sumska Putyvl 02.02.98
    UA18040501 Sumska Romny 20.08.97
    UA18040502 Sumska Romny 20.08.97
    UA18040503 Sumska Romny 08.09.97
    UA18130501 Sumska Serednia Buda 03.02.98
    UA18140501 Sumska Shostka 03.02.98
    UA18140502 Sumska Shostka 03.02.98
    UA18010501 Sumska Sumy 10.12.98
    UA18170501 Sumska Tulyholovo 20.08.97
    UA18120501 Sumska Velyka Pysarivka 03.02.98
    UA18100501 Sumska Volokitino 02.02.98
    UA19090501 Ternopilska Berezhany 20.12.96
    UA19160501 Ternopilska Buchach 10.12.96
    UA19050501 Ternopilska Katerynivka 29.09.95
    UA19200501 Ternopilska Khorostkiv 10.12.96
    UA19030501 Ternopilska Kremenets 27.09.95
    UA19250501 Ternopilska Plebanivka 10.12.96
    UA19060501 Ternopilska Pochaiv 11.12.96
    UA19070501 Ternopilska Shumsk 11.12.96
    UA19040501 Ternopilska Staryj Vyshnevets 28.09.95
    UA01480501 Vinnytska Akymivka 23.06.97
    139
    Commission Survey
    Number Oblast (Region) Town Date
    of Survey
    UA01360501 Vinnytska Balanivka 04.03.96
    UA01230501 Vinnytska Bar 28.02.96
    UA01800501 Vinnytska Bilopillia 05.02.98
    UA01880501 Vinnytska Bershad 15.10.98
    UA01610501 Vinnytska Bortnyky 18.07.97
    UA01050501 Vinnytska Brailiv 30.01.98
    UA01050502 Vinnytska Brailiv 30.01.98
    UA01240501 Vinnytska Bratslav 17.07.97
    UA01340502 Vinnytska Chukiv 18.07.97
    UA01430501 Vinnytska Dashiv 09.06.97
    UA01730501 Vinnytska Diakivtsi 30.01.98
    UA01970501 Vinnytska Frankivka 15.10.98
    UA01100501 Vinnytska Hajsyn 15.07.97
    UA01650501 Vinnytska Hraniv 24.07.97
    UA01810501 Vinnytska Ivaniv 05.02.98
    UA01100502 Vinnytska Ivashkivtsi 10.05.99
    UA01110501 Vinnytska Kalynivka 26.02.96
    UA01840501 Vinnytska Koziatyn 06.02.98
    UA01860501 Vinnytska Khmilnyk 06.02.98
    UA01860502 Vinnytska Khmilnyk 06.02.98
    UA01860503 Vinnytska Khmilnyk 06.02.98
    UA01860504 Vinnytska Khmilnyk 06.02.98
    UA01640501 Vinnytska Krasnopilka 18.07.97
    UA01690501 Vinnytska Ladyzhyn 04.07.97
    UA01720501 Vinnytska Lityn 04.02.98
    UA01720502 Vinnytska Lityn 04.02.98
    UA01720503 Vinnytska Lityn 21.02.98
    UA01720504 Vinnytska Lityn 21.02.98
    UA01660501 Vinnytska Mykhajlivka 09.07.97
    UA01960501 Vinnytska Mohyliv-Podilskyj 15.10.98
    UA01870501 Vinnytska Nekrasovo 06.02.98
    UA01870502 Vinnytska Nekrasovo 06.02.98
    UA01320501 Vinnytska Nemyriv 29.07.97
    UA01320502 Vinnytska Nemyriv 29.07.97
    UA01320503 Vinnytska Nemyriv 30.07.97
    UA01320504 Vinnytska Nemyriv 30.07.97
    UA01580501 Vinnytska Nova Pryluka 11.07.97
    UA01580502 Vinnytska Nova Pryluka 15.07.97
    UA01040501 Vinnytska Obodivka 12.04.97
    UA01470501 Vinnytska Orativ 04.07.97
    UA01910501 Vinnytska Ozaryntsi 01.10.98
    UA01600501 Vinnytska Pechora 21.07.97
    UA01600502 Vinnytska Pechora 22.07.97
    UA01180501 Vinnytska Pishchanka 27.02.96
    UA01540501 Vinnytska Pliskiv 18.07.97
    UA01540502 Vinnytska Pliskiv 15.06.97
    UA01500501 Vinnytska Pohrebyshche 01.07.97
    UA01500502 Vinnytska Pohrebyshche 01.07.97
    UA01500503 Vinnytska Pohrebyshche 06.07.97
    140
    Commission Survey
    Number Oblast (Region) Town Date
    of Survey
    UA01500504 Vinnytska Pohrebyshche 07.07.97
    UA01500505 Vinnytska Pohrebyshche 01.07.97
    UA01380501 Vinnytska Rachnyj-Lisiv 04.03.96
    UA01710501 Vinnytska Rajhorod 25.07.97
    UA01850501 Vinnytska Samhorodok 06.02.98
    UA01200501 Vinnytska Stanislavchyk 28.02.96
    UA01570501 Vinniyska Stara Pryluka 08.07.97
    UA01820501 Vinnytska Stryzhavka 05.02.98
    UA01670501 Vinnytska Tarasivka 25.07.97
    UA01680501 Vinnytska Teplyk 28.07.97
    UA01620501 Vinnytska Torkiv 29.01.98
    UA01270501 Vinnytska Tulchyn 15.07.97
    UA01790501 Vinnytska Tyvriv 06.02.98
    UA01750501 Vinnytska Ulaniv 30.01.98
    UA01370501 Vinnytska V. Borivka 04.03.96
    UA01340501 Vinnytska V. Chukiv 04.03.96
    UA01350501 Vinnytska V. Kurinivka 04.03.96
    UA01400501 Vinnytska V. Matijkiv 04.03.96
    UA01420501 Vinnytska V. Mezhyriv 04.03.96
    UA01330501 Vinnytska V. Miziakiv 04.03.96
    UA01410501 Vinnytska V. Yaltushkiv 04.03.96
    UA01560501 Vinnytska Vachnivka 09.07.97
    UA01560502 Vinnytska Vachnivka 08.07.97
    UA01390501 Vinnytska Vapniarka 04.03.96
    UA01010501 Vinnytska Vinnytsia 28.01.98
    UA01010502 Vinnytska Vinnytsia 28.01.98
    UA01010503 Vinnytska Vinnytsia 28.01.98
    UA01590501 Vinnytska Voronovytsia 23.07.97
    UA01590502 Vinnytska Voronovytsia 23.07.97
    UA01700501 Vinnytska Zarudyntsi 18.07.97
    UA01700502 Vinnytska Zarudyntsi 18.07.97
    UA01020501 Vinnytska Zhabokrychi 15.01.97
    UA01780501 Vinnytska Zhezheliv 04.02.98
    UA01440501 Vinnytska Zhornyshche 09.06.97
    UA02100501 Volynska Berestechko 28.03.96
    UA02210501 Volynska Holoby 02.04.96
    UA02210502 Volynska Holoby 02.04.96
    UA02110501 Volynska Horokhiv 15.03.97
    UA02110502 Volynska Horokhiv 28.03.96
    UA02110503 Volynska Horokhiv 28.03.96
    UA02300501 Volynska Kamin Kashyrskyj 19.02.97
    UA02160501 Volynska Kolky 02.04.96
    UA02270501 Volynska Kyselyn 26.02.97
    UA02270502 Volynska Kyselyn 26.02.97
    UA02010501 Volynska Lutsk 11.03.96
    UA02150501 Volynska Olyka 30.05.96
    UA02260501 Volynska Ozeriany 13.02.97
    UA02250501 Volynska Ozutychi 13.02.97
    UA02060101 Volynska Rozhyshche 27.03.96
    141
    Commission Survey
    Number Oblast (Region) Town Date
    of Survey
    UA02060501 Volynska Rozhyshche 28.03.96
    UA02290501 Volynska Sokil 14.02.97
    UA02020501 Volynska Torchyn 25.03.96
    UA02220501 Volynska Trojanivka 02.04.96
    UA02200501 Volynska Tsminy 02.04.96
    UA02130501 Volynska V. Manevychi 28.03.96
    UA02180501 Volynska V. Melnytsia 02.04.96
    UA02120501 Volynska V. Senkevychivka 28.03.96
    UA02190501 Volynska V. Stariy Chartoriysk 20.12.96
    UA02090501 Volynska V. Zhuravnyky 28.03.96
    UA02080502 Volynska Volodymyr Volynskyj 28.03.96
    UA02080501 Volynska Volodymyr Volynskyj 28.03.96
    UA02230501 Volynska Yaromel 02.04.96
    UA02230502 Volynska Yaromel 21.11.96
    UA06060501 Zakarpatska V. Torun 06.06.96
    UA07020501 Zaporizka Huliaj Pole 27.06.95
    UA07030501 Zaporizka Melitopol 27.06.95
    UA07030502 Zaporizka Melitopol 27.06.95
    UA07100501 Zaporizka Mykhajlivka 27.06.95
    UA07110501 Zaporizka Molochansk 27.06.95
    UA07110502 Zaporizka Molochansk 27.06.95
    UA07090501 Zaporizka Novo-Zlatopol 27.06.95
    UA07120501 Zaporizka Prijutnoje 27.06.95
    UA07060501 Zaporizka Tokmak 27.06.95
    UA07010501 Zaporizka Zaporizhzha 27.06.95
    UA07010502 Zaporizka Zaporizhzha 27.06.95
    UA07010503 Zaporizka Zaporizhzha 27.06.95
    UA05440501 Zhytomyrska Andrushivka 30.05.96
    UA05440502 Zhytomyrska Andrushivka 30.05.96
    UA05010501 Zhytomyrska Baranivka 23.04.96
    UA05580501 Zhytomyrska Barashi 21.11.96
    UA05450501 Zhytomyrska Bilylivka 30.05.96
    UA05020501 Zhytomyrska Berdychiv 15.08.96
    UA05020502 Zhytomyrska Berdychiv 16.08.96
    UA05020503 Zhytomyrska Berdychiv 26.02.97
    UA05250501 Zhytomyrska Cherniakhiv 26.06.95
    UA05480501 Zhytomyrska Chervone 31.05.96
    UA05480502 Zhytomyrska Chervone 31.05.96
    UA05210501 Zhytomyrska Chudniv 31.05.96
    UA05550501 Zhytomyrska Dovbysh 05.06.96
    UA05550502 Zhytomyrska Dovbysh 05.06.96
    UA05550503 Zhytomyrska Dovbysh 05.06.96
    UA05040501 Zhytomyrska Dzerzhynsk 26.06.95
    UA05040502 Zhytomyrska Dzerzhynsk 25.11.96
    UA05050501 Zhytomyrska Emelchyn 25.11.96
    UA05030501 Zhytomyrska Horodnytsia 26.02.97
    UA05330501 Zhytomyrska Ivanopil 25.04.96
    UA05520501 Zhytomyrska Kalynivka 01.06.96
    UA05070501 Zhytomyrska Kaminnyj Brid 25.11.96
    142
    Commission Survey
    Number Oblast (Region) Town Date
    of Survey
    UA05070502 Zhytomyrska Kaminnyj Brid 25.11.96
    UA05360501 Zhytomyrska Khodorkiv 29.04.96
    UA05370501 Zhytomyrska Korostyn 17.05.96
    UA05200501 Zhytomyrska Korostyshiv 26.06.95
    UA05200502 Zhytomyrska Korostyshiv 24.04.96
    UA05600501 Zhytomyrska Kupishche 13.08.97
    UA05090501 Zhytomyrska Liubar 30.05.96
    UA05710501 Zhytomyrska Liubomyrka 26.02.97
    UA05610501 Zhytomyrska Marjanivka 21.11.96
    UA05420501 Zhytomyrska Meleny 21.05.96
    UA05700501 Zhytomyrska Myrnyj 26.02.97
    UA05100501 Zhytomyrska Myropol 25.11.96
    UA05320501 Zhytomyrska Narodychi 25.04.96
    UA05130501 Zhytomyrska Novo-Chortoryja 23.04.96
    UA05110504 Zhytomyrska Novohrad-Volynskyj 12.08.96
    UA05110501 Zhytomyrska Novohrad-Volynskyj 26.06.95
    UA05110502 Zhytomyrska Novohrad-Volynskyj 26.06.95
    UA05110503 Zhytomyrska Novohrad-Volynskyj 26.06.95
    UA05350501 Zhytomyrska Ovruch 29.04.96
    UA05490501 Zhytomyrska Pavoloch 01.06.96
    UA05510501 Zhytomyrska Povchyno 01.06.96
    UA05650501 Zhytomyrska Pjatka 02.11.96
    UA05670501 Zhytomyrska Radomyshl 13.08.96
    UA05670502 Zhytomyrska Radomyshl 13.08.96
    UA05660501 Zhytomyrska Rajhorodok 04.08.96
    UA05140501 Zhytomyrska Rohachiv 25.11.96
    UA05140502 Zhytomyrska Rohachiv 25.11.96
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    A supplementary question would be how many of these have actually been opened and shown to contain the remains of Jews?

    That was never a question.
    - Globus, 7 years ago
  • I don't believe Desbois has published a list or map.

    But the Jewish Preservation Committee of Ukraine has.

    http://www.heritageabroad.gov/reports/doc/survey_ukraine_2005.pdf

    ...

    Yes I had seen that before, I was more interested in Desbois' findings which appear to be based on a different methodology.

    It would be interesting to learn to what extent his 500 mass-grave sites are the same as the Committee's 495, or what degree of overlap exists.

    That was never a question.

    Perhaps not for you but others may have more exacting standards as to what does and does not constitute proof.
    - Dan Dare, 7 years ago
  • Welcome back Dan. :)
    - Jimbo Gomez, 7 years ago
  • Perhaps not for you but others may have more exacting standards as to what does and does not constitute proof.

    Calling nonsense exacting standards from people who exhibit no standards in their denial is one of the more humorous aspects of debunking Holocaust denial.
    - Globus, 7 years ago
  • Welcome back Dan. :)

    Thanks Stan.
    - Dan Dare, 7 years ago
  • Calling nonsense exacting standards from people who exhibit no standards in their denial is one of the more humorous aspects of debunking Holocaust denial.

    If you'd care to recast this doggerel into something more resembling standard English I might consider making a witty retort.
    - Dan Dare, 7 years ago
  • If you'd care to recast this doggerel into something more resembling standard English I might consider making a witty retort.

    You might consider it, but you'd be forced to hire someone who can read.
    - Globus, 7 years ago
  • It doesn't appear that Globbo is going to be able to assist with my initial questions.

    Anyone else have any insights?
    - Dan Dare, 7 years ago
  • It doesn't appear that Globbo is going to be able to assist with my initial questions.

    On the contrary, I gave you good information on the only intelligent question.
    - Globus, 7 years ago
  • Well, I'll keep the line up in case any more useful contributions should happen to surface.
    - Dan Dare, 7 years ago
  • DanPerhaps not for you but others may have more exacting standards as to what does and does not constitute proof.
    Robert Faurison , David Irving , Fred Leutcher , Fred Toben , Germar Rudolf - what exacting standards did they seek , it would seem that they set the bar very low as far in terms of "exacting standards"
    - cerberus, 7 years ago
  • Well, I'll keep the line up in case any more useful contributions should happen to surface.

    And then what will you do with them? Learn something?
    - Globus, 7 years ago
  • Dan
    Robert Faurison , David Irving , Fred Leutcher , Fred Toben , Germar Rudolf - what exacting standards did they seek , it would seem that they set the bar very low as far in terms of "exacting standards"

    I'm not holding a candle for any those individuals, cerb, the comment was more directed towards those who frequent these forums.
    - Dan Dare, 7 years ago
  • And then what will you do with them? Learn something?

    If the answer is convincing, then probably yes. If not, no.

    I am not so arrogant and blinkered as to believe that I already know everything there is to know about the Holocaust.

    But I do know the smell of gefilte fisch.
    - Dan Dare, 7 years ago
  • If the answer is convincing, then probably yes. If not, no.

    Based on your history, the answer is always no. Wonder why that is?

    I am not so arrogant and blinkered as to believe that I already know everything there is to know about the Holocaust.

    And if you were, the Treblinka debate disabused you of that notion!

    But I do know the smell of gefilte fisch.

    Perhaps it's your nether regions.
    - Globus, 7 years ago
  • Based on your history, the answer is always no. Wonder why that is?

    What history? I'm assuming you must be able to cite chapter and verse otherwise you wouldn't be making such a wild assertion.

    Let's see watcha got.
    - Dan Dare, 7 years ago
  • What history? I'm assuming you must be able to cite chapter and verse otherwise you wouldn't be making such a wild assertion.

    Let's see watcha got.

    Please!

    Read the Treblinka debate, which you lost.
    - Globus, 7 years ago
  • Well, there's a surprise.

    Globbo turns out to be just a bag of hot air who makes baseless assertions about other members and then scurries off when challenged.

    Bye, bye Globbo.
    - Dan Dare, 7 years ago
  • Well, there's a surprise.

    Globbo turns out to be just a bag of hot air who makes baseless assertions about other members and then scurries off when challenged.

    Bye, bye Globbo.

    Bye, bye, Danny.

    Meanwhile those interested in the answer Danny pretends wasn't given can read the Treblinka debate.
    - Globus, 7 years ago
  • Major French Magazine Acknowledges Auschwitz Gas Chamber Fraud

    One of France's most influential and reputable magazines, L'Express, now acknowledges that "everything is false" about the Auschwitz "gas chamber" that for decades has been shown to tens of thousands of tourists yearly. "Auschwitz: The Memory of Evil," a lengthy article by journalist and historian Eric Conan, a dedicated anti-revisionist, appears in the January 19-25, 1995, issue, pages 54-73 (and in the Jan. 26 international edition). L'Express is a liberal large-circulation weekly news magazine, similar in format to Time or Newsweek.


    http://www.phxnews.com/fullstory.php?article=29901

    More lies exposed. How much clearer do you "Holocaust" propagandists want it?
    - Commander, 7 years ago
  • Major French Magazine Acknowledges Auschwitz Gas Chamber Fraud

    As always context is everythiong, going to post all of the artilce or just a little ?
    The same old same old , time and time again , and again , and again etc , etc , etc , and so on and so on and so on .:deadhorse:
    - cerberus, 7 years ago
  • As always context is everythiong, going to post all of the artilce or just a little ?


    There is such a thing as the "fair use" policy. Posting an entire article is not the proper way to do things. There is a link there for anyone interested in seeing the entire contents.

    The paragraph I quoted is the 1st one, in it's entirety.
    - Commander, 7 years ago
  • There is such a thing as the "fair use" policy. Posting an entire article is not the proper way to do things. There is a link there for anyone interested in seeing the entire contents.

    The paragraph I quoted is the 1st one, in it's entirety.

    How do you know, since you don't have a link to the article, only to a denier websites claims about the article.

    This old canard has been around for a long time. It's worthless.

    But thanks for illustrating once again that deniers can ignore countless pieces of real historical evidence, but claim the history of a major modern event is disproven by a claimed newspaper story!!
    - Globus, 7 years ago
  • How do you know, since you don't have a link to the article, only to a denier websites claims about the article.

    This old canard has been around for a long time. It's worthless.

    But thanks for illustrating once again that deniers can ignore countless pieces of real historical evidence, but claim the history of a major modern event is disproven by a claimed newspaper story!!

    For the record I agree having an actual link to L'Express would have be better. I would guess the Jews in France made sure that article disappeared.

    I am not a "denier", in fact the only way that term could be properly applied to me, would be to say I deny that the Jewish dictionary, & terms such as these, are legitimate.

    There were many Jews killed in the war, the greatest majority as the result of Jewish proxy armies making it impossible [because of non-stop bombing] for the German gov. to care for properly, the labor camp inmates.
    - Commander, 7 years ago
  • For the record I agree having an actual link to L'Express would have be better. I would guess the Jews in France made sure that article disappeared.

    So the reason for your inability to produce an article whose existence you cannot even show is the Jews!!

    Typical.

    I am not a "denier", in fact the only way that term could be properly applied to me, would be to say I deny that the Jewish dictionary, & terms such as these, are legitimate.

    Uh, huh.

    There were many Jews killed in the war, the greatest majority as the result of Jewish proxy armies making it impossible [because of non-stop bombing] for the German gov. to care for properly, the labor camp inmates.

    So in fact you are a denier. You can call yourself anything you want, but that's what you are.
    - Globus, 7 years ago
  • So in fact you are a denier. You can call yourself anything you want, but that's what you are.
    Please see post #96, 2nd paragraph.
    - Commander, 7 years ago
  • Please see post #96, 2nd paragraph.

    I saw it. It made no sense.
    - Globus, 7 years ago
  • I saw it. It made no sense.

    I believe you, see, you speak an offshoot of the English language, a sort of mixture of Jewish physcobable / English / Yiddish. This sub-language of yours is similar to the language some blacks in America speak, a.k.a. ebonics or "Black English". It is unique to their ethnic group.

    Myself, I speak the King's English, the kind taught in schools during the 1950's & 1960's. With the changing ethnic makeup of western countries, these Sub-dialects have become more & more prevalent.
    - Commander, 7 years ago
  • I believe you, see, you speak an offshoot of the English language, a sort of mixture of Jewish physcobable / English / Yiddish.

    Describing your post, eh!
    - Globus, 7 years ago

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