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My Nanna Can't Tell An Amphetamine From A Methamphetamine!

by MrIbis
I think i posted it in another thread... but we were talking about p2p and pseudo based cooks, the results and the starter costs..

I'll note that, in not mentioning prices, a kilo of p2p is worth roughly a six figure amount. Now thats enough to cook a significant amount of meth. However, it's probably much simpler to consider that most meth cooks are fairly inexperienced, and a p2p cook is a hell of a lot more difficult than your standard pseudoephedrine reduction. Also that they require a shitload more equipment to pull off, that your average jibhead backyard cook just wouldn't have access to.

In saying all this, it's quite likely that most meth in this country is just cut up pseudo reduced shit. Given that p2p is explicitly illegal with no industrialized uses - finding a way to divert it would be a fucking long shot toward the goal. And finding a decent chemist skilled enough to pull off such a method without creating a shite product would also be a fairly long shot - unless you yourself are such a savvy person.

  • All my friends talk about speed being either 'ketone' or 'pseudo' like there are differences between them (such as ketone lasting longer when you smoke it, tasting different, being better, etc).

    I personally don't know wtf they're talking about because afaik if you make meth from either ketone or pseudoephedrine it doesn't matter because they both turn out as methamphetamine, the finished product is the same... then again I don't know too much about the synthesis of drugs.

    Anyone care to explain?
    - asphyx, 4 years ago
  • There is one major difference. It's got to with enantiomers. On each of your hands point the 3rd finger inwards. Now imagine the meth molecule as one of your hands, say your left hand. We'll call that the levorotatory (l)enantiomer (isomer). Now look at your right hand and think of this as the dextrorotatory (d) enantiomer of meth. These are non-superimposible,, in the same way as d-meth and l-meth are.

    As can be imagined, because of the positional differences, it's unlikely both molecules will bind to the same things in the same way. Think of the receptor as 7 strands of amino acids next to each other, with certain places on a few strands that bind with the drug. One enantiomer might "fit" well, but it's complementary will have essential features which are orientated differently.

    In regards to methamphetamine, the d- enantiomer is the most psychoactive. It has several times the potency of the l-enantiomer.


    Now to answer your question. Put simply, (+) Pseudoephedrine is the correct isomer (diastereomer) for producing only the d-enantiomer of meth. However, when meth is made via the ketone (which can be considered a flat molecule for this explanation) the amino group can attach from both sides, with the product being a 50:50 mixture of the d and l enantiomers. This is known as a racemic mixture.

    As for physical appearance and pharmacology, there is a perceivable difference, but it's not as might be expected (i.e. 1/2 the potency of pure d-meth). Reports say the ketone based product produces a different high, and perhaps crystallises better, but I can't speak from experience here.


    [Edit: threads merged; p_d]
    - phase_dancer, 4 years ago
  • ^^^ Nice. Ten outta ten for explaining it in a way us non chemists can grasp.
    Elephant stamp for you p_d :)
    - Oldrolla, 4 years ago
  • Thanks Oldrolla, it's sometimes tricky when attempting to use everyday examples and simplifying too much, as it's easy to give an incorrect picture. However, it's not hard stuff, first year chem really. If you want more, check out wiki on

    Chirality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chirality_%28chemistry%29)

    Enantiomer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enantiomer)

    Diastereomer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diastereomer)

    Optical rotation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_rotation)
    - phase_dancer, 4 years ago
  • If ketone kept people awake, then they'd put that in cold & flu medicine.

    I rest my case.

    I could launch into a long-winded discussion about the various differences there are but the short of it is: ketone may make you feel awake, but it certainly doesn't give you any buzz :|

    also, ketone tastes like shit compared with bomb ass pseudo... and smells like cats piss. icky, yicky, and not my cup of tea. it's basically all there is nowadays in victoria, however :(
    - hyroller, 4 years ago
  • Levo-methylamphetamine is used in some OTC medicines in America, namely as a nasal decongestant.
    - Mr Blonde, 4 years ago
  • @ignatius J
    all good bro, just looked directed at me, when I already knew all of what you just said lol.

    But thx for clearing that up.
    - thestudent14, 4 years ago
  • The freebase form of meth is an oil (liquid); the HCl salt, a crystalline solid. Without getting into detail here, reduction of pseudo can be done in either base or acid conditions (although some methods wouldn't work for both). If basic conditions were used, the pseudo would normally first be converted (maybe insitu) to the freebase - a liquid.

    I didn't see Sustanon's post, but to refer to pure meth as an oil, although true, in a sense is misleading, as Meth is normally produced, sold and used as the HCl salt, and pure Meth-HCl is a solid.

    I never referred to meth freebase oil to be pure. U need to turn it into Hydrochloride and purify it. Hence the so called "base" is going around because people do not know how to do it properly or too lazy to clean it up.
    - Sustanon, 4 years ago
  • Hyroller I can't see how that is possiably accurate and sounds more like word of mouth then anything. Without having known samples from each its impossiable to tell without making assumptions. Id say your assumptions are based around a variance of product which is typical of the black market.

    Also as phasedancer pointed out psudo produces primaryly d-meth, the more active isomer and would assume be more potent at keeping people awake. Ketone produces both d and L meth (racemic).

    Chem isn't my strongest so someone correct me if im wrong.
    - static_mind, 3 years ago
  • It is based on my personal experience.

    Which is no doubt more extensive than you own.

    I can tell the difference between the two.
    I have a preference, and it is ***not*** for ketone!


    thankyouverymuch
    - hyroller, 2 years ago
  • I'm backing hyroller on this

    It's not hard to find these things out based on who/what you know

    In the circles I frequented in Melbourne it was quite common to be offered the choice of ketone or pseudo

    There was a ketone surge in the mid 00's and the differences are very noticeable when you're a frequent user...
    - PsiloSubNaut, 2 years ago
  • The effects are different, and it tastes different..
    Its quite easy in that respect to tell the difference between the two...

    Unfortunately, both do fuck all to me.. Stupid brain chemistry *grumbles*
    - ashstorm, 2 years ago
  • Now days I get fuck all from Meth unless it's the purest of pure

    Ever since my binges on MDPV it just doesn't give me a buzz like it used to :(
    - PsiloSubNaut, 2 years ago
  • ^^^^ Bugger :|

    Maybe MDPV is the only way up for me?
    Not that I kinda care about getting high, per se. Hard to enjoy that feeling when life has sooo much other shit at play....argh.

    Last time someone tries to tell me I don't know the difference between the two varieties of my D.O.C :X
    - hyroller, 2 years ago
  • I believe that is all the more reason to stay away from MDPV

    I've said it before and i'll say it again... MDPV makes meth look like a teddy bears picnic!

    Good Meth is where it's at stimulant wise and after a while it does fuck all for you, whether you use RC's like MDPV, or not
    - PsiloSubNaut, 2 years ago
  • Its always a good thing to take a big break every now ad then. I dont use it on a regular basis but when i smoke 20mg of ice im thru clouds for a couple of hours lol

    Had 70mg white rocks the other day orally and it was very nice. I feel the same way as u guys with opiates. Nothing seems to work anymore like it used to. Not even H or oxys no matter how much i do. Went through half g in like 2 days. Tolerance sux up after all those months/years it builds up. The longer u use it the longer break u need i find.
    - Sustanon, 2 years ago
  • Okay hyroller and psilo, i posted it before, no one took notice.

    THE COST OF PRECURSORS TO COOK RACEMIC METH IS ABOUT 300x THAT OF PSEUDO... And far more difficult.

    There is quite the possibilty what you have is just SHIT.

    p2p has no known industrial uses in this country, therefore its only diversion method is either local synthesis in proper labs, or imported in reasonably small quantities from asia. Then following that doing a more difficult synthesis than that of a pseudoephedrine reduction.

    I'd like people to stop speculating on what they have, most meth found in this country is probably 10% or less in purity. Shitty synth and shake and bake is gonna create crap no matter what route you take (ketone is a lot more difficult to cook in your back shed) And to cook half a gram to a gram of meth realistically costs fuck all, and can be done on a child's allowance, and the precursors are available to kids too.

    Can you tell me where your logic tells you that all the meth is 'ketone'?
    - MrIbis, 2 years ago
  • I just dont see why sulphate isnt so popular over here in AU. There are just way too many backyard wannabee chemists trying to make a quick buck. The chemicals are so much easier to obtain for sulphate. Its just a matter of basic knowledge in chemistry.

    Its made out of p2np which consists of only 3 unscheduled chems where the starting materials are destilled from a so called oil without going into the synthesis part of it. Shits all over ice IMO. Much more pleasant feeling as well.
    - Sustanon, 2 years ago
  • Okay hyroller and psilo, i posted it before, no one took notice.

    THE COST OF PRECURSORS TO COOK RACEMIC METH IS ABOUT 300x THAT OF PSEUDO... And far more difficult.

    There is quite the possibilty what you have is just SHIT.

    p2p has no known industrial uses in this country, therefore its only diversion method is either local synthesis in proper labs, or imported in reasonably small quantities from asia. Then following that doing a more difficult synthesis than that of a pseudoephedrine reduction.

    I'd like people to stop speculating on what they have, most meth found in this country is probably 10% or less in purity. Shitty synth and shake and bake is gonna create crap no matter what route you take (ketone is a lot more difficult to cook in your back shed) And to cook half a gram to a gram of meth realistically costs fuck all, and can be done on a child's allowance, and the precursors are available to kids too.

    Can you tell me where your logic tells you that all the meth is 'ketone'?

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the reason of the "supposed" prevelance of 'ketone' meth due to Psuedo synths being uneconomical in the large scale?
    - Sameria, 2 years ago
  • Yes - but - p2p is a lot harder to come by... and people with the right connections could easily come by a kilo or so of psuedo.
    - MrIbis, 2 years ago
  • DUDE

    have you taken notice of how many pseudo busts there have been in the past 18 months????

    pseudo synths are very uneconomical nowadays, not to mention, the extremely tight regulations that are now in place to prevent the purchase of it.

    it's like me telling you that you can't tell the difference between chinese, afghan, black tar heroin etc etc. you'll just have to take my word for it that almost everything getting around nowadays (whether speed or shard) is not pseudoephedrine based.

    add to the fact that much of the shard is imported also... definitely no pseudo coming in from the asian countries... :|
    - hyroller, 2 years ago
  • I have seen large amounts of p2p for sale here and over seas in years gone by

    I'm now well out of the stimulant scene and can't be bothered with this argument as it's our word against yours and can't be easily proven either way

    If you want something bad enough and have the money, you can get it anywhere in the world :)
    - PsiloSubNaut, 2 years ago
  • I also have to say that the purity of the p2p-based stuff is very minimal

    my mate got done with a few Oz's of it early last year and the purity levels were something like 17%....and this is one step above the regular street level gear that gets punters off...

    so while it may be 'expensive' in your eyes, the fact that it can be jumped to such a degree makes it a very attractive option - in the absence of pseudo, that prevails.
    - hyroller, a year ago
  • I also have to say that the purity of the p2p-based stuff is very minimal

    my mate got done with a few Oz's of it early last year and the purity levels were something like 17%....and this is one step above the regular street level gear that gets punters off...

    so while it may be 'expensive' in your eyes, the fact that it can be jumped to such a degree makes it a very attractive option - in the absence of pseudo, that prevails.

    All street level speed in Aus is around the 10% purity mark but try telling the average punter that hahaha good luck

    In 04,05,06 we used to get 30% pure smokeable that was easily twice as strong as other sources

    .1-.2g of decent meth is almost always better than a gram of speed. I'd hate to still be right in the stim scene today. From all accounts there is some really good meth about this year but seeing doofers hang off the cracky and go through 1-2g cutter laiden speed in a night just saddens me :(
    - PsiloSubNaut, a year ago
  • Goes through 1-2g of ice in one night? I think 2pt is more than enough for an average person lol

    But yea ur right, ice shits all over "base" period. Everything is stepped on these days even ice with msm.
    - Sustanon, a year ago
  • Not ICE

    I'm talking about the shithouse smokeable speed that everyone seems to love wasting their money on in melb at the moment

    It's sad man, fucking sad

    re read my post above yours dude
    - PsiloSubNaut, a year ago
  • hyroller and psilo: I'm not making just assumptions, ive seen p2p for sale, but surely those with contacts in high places could get bulk pseudoephedrine a fuckload easier/cheaper than an equal amount of p2p. I'm saying this from experience and from knowledge...

    and in saying all of this, if u had a pure sample of some racemic meth, you wouldn't whinge about it. it would shit all over the cut up crud you're used to.

    And comparing it to afghan etc... Well the only way you can say its afghan is is seeing and smelling it, theres a very obvious difference between the heroin #s, and that means absolutely nothing to purity - whilst i say i've never had gear as good as the afghan, most china white i've had has been pretty good.
    - MrIbis, a year ago
  • Maybe I wouldn't whinge about pure racemic meth, but there's nil profits in anyone selling it, so I guess I won't be trying it any time soon!....


    Still prefer the more psychoactive of the two, even at lower purity levels - being the pseudo-synthed variety.

    The differences between ketone and pseudo speed are equally as telltale, and since it isn't your DOC I don't see how you'd be an authority on the matter.

    cheers :)
    - hyroller, 11 months ago
  • i'd beg to differ on the comments that there is nil profit, people will buy the shit no matter if it looks like shit or looks like the best shard on earth.
    - MrIbis, 10 months ago
  • So you, MrIbis, can speak from experience but we can't? WTF?





    I must be an idiot that doesn't know anything about my old D.O.C :)
    - PsiloSubNaut, 8 months ago
  • i'd beg to differ on the comments that there is nil profit, people will buy the shit no matter if it looks like shit or looks like the best shard on earth.

    So why sell a good product when you could sell a shit one and triple or higher your profits???


    All your 'argument' is doing is demonstrating my point 8)
    - hyroller, 8 months ago
  • This discussion has gone nowhere fast.

    Speculation is just that, and it seems every time this or other meth threads are bumped the same pointless arguments start again. All going well, I should be speaking to a forensic chemist in a few weeks, one who probably knows more about what's around in Aus than anybody. You can rest assured I'll be asking the ketone question, so hopefully we can finally settle this once and for all.

    Until then, if you want to know whether it's racemic or not, it will need to be purified, a sample prepared and viewed through one of these

    http://www.antique-microscopes.com/chemistry/Laurent-polarimeter.jpg
    - phase_dancer, 7 months ago
  • Thank you p_d!

    I'm not trying to undermine anyone with my 'knowledge' psilo or hyroller - just speaking from what i've actually seen (in terms of people doing backyard meth synths) not just trying something and it was inferior to another batch and tasted shit (mainly due to cutters). I speak of financial viability - and unless you own some kind of super lab, pumping out a fuckload of racemic meth is going to be much harder than cooking up a few pounds of pseudo that smurfs have got.

    Anyway, i'll wait with bated breath for p_d's conclusion to this saga. I'm sick to death of this debate, when no one knows one way or the other.
    - MrIbis, 7 months ago
  • So p_d,

    I'm guessing that machine, is some type of R/L polarization measurement with a microscope built in, where the gadges just let you determine the different orientaitons of the molecules your looking at.

    Go chemistry/physics first principles.

    On topic on the off topic convo:

    Keep personal attacks out of the thread, it does nothing for HR, and speculation is just that. Unless you've got good resources, *looks at p_d's machine from the 1800's*, then you thats all you can do.

    True some of your conclusions may be based off empirical evidence, but this empirical evidence is collected in such un-scientific means that your conclusions can not be viable.

    I know it's the best the average user can do with the information on hand. But no need to say that my un-scientific method is better then your un-scientific method because of some hand wavy reason. It's best to compile all the information we have and then maybe we can look for significant trends and come to some *possibly viable* conclusion together.

    As bickering against one another is not going to solve the mystery it's just going to make BL look worse, not a win for anyone. So either work together, this doesn't mean agreeing, or simply wait for more evidence before you come to a *greatly more* scientific conclusion.
    - Sykik, 7 months ago
  • Well said Sykik.

    Yes, it is an old polarimeter, which is used in chem to identify optical rotation; how polarized light is rotated by different substances.

    While I'm sure you don't need any explanation of the processes involved, for others interested, this from wiki (Optical rotation) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_rotation) provides a good overview of how this is measured. As the mathematical symbols won't paste properly, I've omitted those and parts describing such. For a more complete explanation see under "Theory" via the above link.


    Optical activity is a type of birefringence. Any linear polarization of light can be written as an equal combination of right-hand (RHC) and left-hand circularly (LHC) polarized light:

    The relative phase between the two circular polarizations, 2θ0, sets the direction of the linear polarization to θ0. In an optically active material the two circular polarizations experience different refractive indices. The difference in the indices quantifies the strength of the optical activity, .....

    This difference is a characteristic of the material (for substances in solution it is given as the specific rotation). After traveling through length L of material the two polarizations pick up a relative phase ..... Consequently, the final polarization is rotated to angle θ0 + Δθ.

    Generally, the refractive index depends on the wavelength (see dispersion). The variation in rotation with the wavelength of the light is called optical rotatory dispersion (ORD). ORD spectra and circular dichroism spectra are related through the Kramers–Kronig relations. Complete knowledge of one spectrum allows the calculation of the other.

    In summary, the degree of rotation depends on the color of the light (the yellow sodium D line near 589 nm wavelength is commonly used for measurements), the path length L and the properties of the material (e.g. Δn or specific rotation and concentration).
    - phase_dancer, 6 months ago
  • I understand the science of this completely, before anyone discredits me and says i'm speculating, it's fair to say - but i'd say it's more of an educated guess (i honestly don't know or care what drugs you're taking or how shit they are). Based upon my knowledge of the market, industry and what i know of clandestine production, and have witnessed by firsthand account (shake-n-bake pseudo synths... one of which i was witness to a few weeks back... by far the most shoddy set of chemistry i have ever seen in my life).

    In all of this, my conclusion is that there is likely alot more d-meth than racemic. But yeah until we have a decent amount of samples, and have them purified and a statistic for drugs TODAY confirmed by p_d or someone else (i'd be quite happy to assemble these samples for analysis just to fuck this argument off once and for all - and if it's found that my hypothesis is incorrect, i'll bite my tongue).
    - MrIbis, 5 months ago
  • I've seen my fair share of shake n bake pseudo synths.

    That doesn't change the reality of the present time.

    If I could be fucked spending money on the shit drugs out there for your edification, I would - but I can't, and so we can wait for p_d's buddy to get back to us - who will (I am certain) confirm what I've been saying all along.

    All your opinions are based on inferences, MrIbis, not actual consumer experience - remember that.
    - hyroller, in a month
  • OK, without pointing any fingers, let's put the breaks on now please
    - phase_dancer, in 2 months
  • Until then, if you want to know whether it's racemic or not, it will need to be purified, a sample prepared and viewed through one of these



    An old machine gun!
    - static_mind, in 2 months
  • I'd like to bring up something that sustanon raised in one of his posts, why, with the ease of availability of the precursors to phenyl-2-nitropropene, is amp sulphate not more widely available??? Is it because it is not smokable? sort of a supply and demand thing, in that more people are chasing the rush that comes with smoking/IVing rather than the more prolonged high that comes with other ROI's

    I know that meth was easier to synth when psudo was available but now that smurfing is almost impossible why risk buying it on the black market when it must be easier to divert or even purchase legally, these 3 or 4 unwatched chemicals????
    - Ignatius J., in 2 months
  • this is interesting, and i never thought about it, but i guess crystal over there comes from (insert South/East Asian country)?

    whereas here, all the good comes from Mexico

    cheers
    - Gormur, in 3 months
  • Yes. Mostly from Asia (including China).

    America also has a massive amount of home cooked gear (from what I hear, not speaking from experience). I suppose it would be different from state to state though.
    - Sameria, in 4 months
  • there are but a lot of the underground labs have been busted & all the major chemicals to make it are heavily watched/controlled (esp pseudo), so most of it comes from mexico now

    most shake n bake is for personal use. large quantities just aren't worth the risk, i'd assume
    - Gormur, in 4 months
  • There isn't much point speculating as to what other people are getting. I am sure there is plenty of pseudo and ketone out there, like all drugs it really does depend who you know. Sure in some cases the odds of you knowing someone with one thing are greater than another but at the end of the day all anybody can do is speculate.

    It is kinda silly to say there is no difference between racemic and pseudo methamphetamine, it is pretty well documented that there is actually a difference in their effects and potency. While I wouldn't be complaining if I had my hands on some pure "ketone" (misleading term btw) there probably some people out there that are really turned off by the addition of the L isomer.

    Seriously, fuck speed! I had some ice in February and it was by far the best methamphetamine I have ever used. While it was not my first experience with ice it was definately the purest shit I have ever seen. After using that stuff I have no trouble believing your average 'speed' is only 10-15% pure because it just does not compare.

    Ice seems really overpriced these days but if you don't get ripped off I guarantee your getting atleast as much meth for your money as buying 'speed', the only reason I would ever buy 'speed' again is if I wanted to do lines in a club or something. If I am putting it in a pipe you can bet it will be shards.
    - drug_mentor, in 5 months
  • There isn't much point speculating as to what other people are getting. I am sure there is plenty of pseudo and ketone out there, like all drugs it really does depend who you know. Sure in some cases the odds of you knowing someone with one thing are greater than another but at the end of the day all anybody can do is speculate.

    It is kinda silly to say there is no difference between racemic and pseudo methamphetamine, it is pretty well documented that there is actually a difference in their effects and potency. While I wouldn't be complaining if I had my hands on some pure "ketone" (misleading term btw) there probably some people out there that are really turned off by the addition of the L isomer.

    Seriously, fuck speed! I had some ice in February and it was by far the best methamphetamine I have ever used. While it was not my first experience with ice it was definately the purest shit I have ever seen. After using that stuff I have no trouble believing your average 'speed' is only 10-15% pure because it just does not compare.

    Ice seems really overpriced these days but if you don't get ripped off I guarantee your getting atleast as much meth for your money as buying 'speed', the only reason I would ever buy 'speed' again is if I wanted to do lines in a club or something. If I am putting it in a pipe you can bet it will be shards.

    yes there are less peripheral effects with d-methamphetamine.. much smoother. that's what i usually use. i feel wide awake & chill on it, thinking clearly etc

    i didn't get what tweaking was till i tried racemic meth (d+l isomers). to me, it's more euphoric & tends to create a stoned feeling when smoked.. sort of a floaty feeling

    my friends and i even have a joke about it.. the racemic stuff is what we like to party on (also called the sex stuff =D) while d-meth is good for everything; especially for work (cause it provides stamina + focus)
    - Gormur, in 6 months
  • That'll help fund my amphetamine habit ;)
    - silentangst, 3 years ago
  • I cannot believe the quality that some people will put into their bodies thinking its 'mad shit.'

    Like has already been said, it's who you know, only buy from trusted sources.
    - bergle, 3 years ago
  • I wonder if P_D ever got to speak with a forensic chemist as outlined in 2010...and if he did, what was the results?
    - BongoBongo, 3 years ago
  • Ok so I hate to quote myself (another thread here (http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=559055&page=3)):


    The possible methamphetamine "types" (for lack of a better word) which could possible be purchased are the two enantiomer, racemic and each being either a sale (HCl) or freebase?

    L-Methamphetamine HCl
    D-Methamphetamine HCl
    D/L-Methamphetamine HCl

    L-Methamphetamine freebase
    D-Methamphetamine freebase
    D/L-Methamphetamine freebase

    (and then combinations of the freebase/salt but I would assume this would be highly uncommon)


    However this whole "I've got ice", "No, it's speed", "No, it's shards" crap is aggravating.

    Given the list of possible chemical enantiomer of methamphetmines, are the more knowledgeable on here able to make an (educated) guess as of what we say "ice" this implies ???, or "gear/speed" (to me gear and speed are the same - having different purities ranging from being totally stepped on to neat) implies ??? ?.

    Other then trying to clarify this using standard nomenclature, my personal question is what is "ice" (in terms of SA slang :P )
    - tyrael, 3 years ago

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